5 ms·

Let's hope that they have it be designed by actually experienced road designers, and/or people who commute by bike. So much a French bike infra is so clearly bu

by brnt 7y ago

Let's hope that they have it be designed by actually experienced road designers, and/or people who commute by bike. So much a French bike infra is so clearly build by people who never use it. Turns too sharp, cycle lanes next to parking strips (French motorists don't check where they swing their doors), lanes that end a busy intersections (creating intersection arenas), places where you need them the most... I'm from the Netherlands and I see there's a serious effort in France, but before they build anymore they really need to get some experience into the design. Much of the infra barely helps having a safe and comfortable commute like we have back home.

tasogare 7y ago
> Under her plans, Paris was to remove 72% of its on-street car parking spaces. Totally a political promise made by the kind of people who think subway tickets cost 5€ and only use official cars that comes with driver and parking. I hate cars in Paris as much as anyone, but they are required in a number of cases and this measure will hugely impact negatively the mid-class and poors that needs to commute to Paris for work, while not impacting the (very) richs that can live in the center.
- rossng 7y ago
  This is a common refrain, but I don't think it's supported by evidence. The poorest people cannot afford own a car[1] - and one can hypothesise that the high entry cost (purchasing a car, buying insurance) is a significant reason for this. Other methods of transport, such as cycling, walking, buses and trains do not have this high entry cost and so are much more accessible for the most disadvantaged people in our society. It's also critical to have a strong urban planning policy that allows people to live near to where jobs and transport hubs are. Suburbs inherently advantage car owners (and, consequently, the richer people that can afford to own a car). [1] See, for example, data from the UK: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/expenditure/datasets/percentageofhouseholdswithcarsbyincomegrouptenureandhouseholdcompositionuktablea47 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personal...
- bleuarff 7y ago
  I don't think people commuting to Paris for work use public parking space, the cost is much too high for everyday 9-to-5 usage. Either they use public transports, or have a private parking space at work. In both case they're not impacted by reducing public park space.
- orwin 7y ago
  It will impact the upper to middle class who go to paris to visit or to shop, and maybe homeless people living in their cars. middleclass commuters don't park on on-street car parking place, and poor, non-homeless people don't own a car when living in or close to Paris. Also subway cost 35€ a month (well, 70 if you're not working), or ~20 a week if you're a tourist (unless you take one-use ticket, but don't do that, especially if you arrive by the airport). One-use ticket if you stay within Paris last 2 hours and cost ~2€, but it is more expensive if you're not actually in Paris (i think its 15€ from CDG to the center).
patall 7y ago
I cannot agree more. I am so annoyed that there is good number of new cycle lanes are created along the busiest street in the area. Not that there are no parallel roads that are much nicer but no, you have to build them were all the noise, bad air and danger is. Same for cross country bike paths that tag along a cross country roads and sometimes even the motorway. No wonder almost nobody uses those.
- brnt 7y ago
  Actually, that's by far the best cycle path right now in French cities: find a quiet parallel road (probably no more than one street over) and cycle there.
  - buckminster 7y ago
    Where I live Waze ensures that quiet parallel roads are a thing of the past.
reallydontask 7y ago
> Let's hope that they have it be designed by actually experienced road designers, and/or people who commute by bike Indeed. It's a similar experience in the UK where a lot of the bike paths seemed designed to meet council goals rather than be usable. Near me we have several stretches of dedicated bike paths, sadly unconnected between them and one leads into a fence (I wish I were making it up, though to be charitable maybe the project run out of money before they could complete it) No doubt the council congratulated themselves on building ~ 1.5 miles of bike paths that year.
- mattmanser 7y ago
  They spent millions making one in Nottingham on an already low-traffic road that is regularly bisected by junctions. Cars, of course, pull up to wait in the cycleway, without looking. So not only is it pointless because it's not a busy road, it's also extremely dangerous.
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  My nearest town got a white line down the main road. It's actually worse than nothing because it's full of potholes and you get grief from drivers if you ride outside it.
  - everyone 7y ago
    Hey, a motorist who sees you and gives you grief is many times less likely to kill you then one who simply doesnt see you. Grief from motorists is good when ure a cyclist (not optimal, but good) Being visible to motorists is the #1 thing u can do to be safer. You just cycle wherever and however is physically safest, the road laws and regulations are not designed to keep you safe, they're designed for motorists to be able zoom around wherever they want unimpeded by anything. The only law you should be concerned about are the laws of physics. When motorists are beeping at me, I take it as a beautiful fanfare to celebrate 'safety achieved' hurray hurray you can see me!
    - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
Luc 7y ago
I believe it will take a few generations. They'll probably make sub-optimal designs taking into account the local car culture. If they're lucky in 15 years they'll again have a mayor interested in advancing bicycling, and they'll improve the design, with car drivers more aware of bicycles by then. Repeat every time the roads are rebuilt. Other countries never seem to take the shortcut to a proven, optimal design. Not Invented Here syndrome.
black_puppydog 7y ago
Here in grenoble they opened a bunch of new lanes last year, and one stretch in a very busy road is actually in the middle between the two car lanes, on slightly raised ground, like 10cm, enough to make a bump if you cross over with a car, but that's all. At first I hated the idea but once I was on there for the first time it immediately became clear to me that whoever had planned this had thought more about it than I ever did in my last five years of bike-commuting. Being in the middle means that bicycles of both directions share space (which feels much more generous than sharing with cars) and you're never next to parking cars, at risk of being doored. So yeah, there's a lot of improvement to be made with simple changes like this. I hope they seize the opportunity.
- Kyro38 7y ago
  Same city. Other advantage is that you won't be bothered by the buses and their stops !
- kaybe 7y ago
  A disadvantage of that placement should be the pollution you're exposed to. Even small displacements of the bikepath next to the road have a large impact already. I cannot wait for internal combustion engines in cities to die out.
  - Mediterraneo10 7y ago
    Re: pollution, at least now riders are likely to be riding with something over their face and nose, even if it isn’t a high-grade safety mask.
    - joncrane 7y ago
      I don't think masks filter the kind of pollution that is really harmful (fumes, not particles).
      - Mediterraneo10 7y ago
        They must have some effect, inasmuch as cyclists and motorbike drivers in highly polluted cities like Kathmandu and Delhi wear at least a cloth over their mouths for their own comfort.
Vinnl 7y ago
> (French motorists don't check where they swing their doors) I don't understand how this happens. I haven't lived in other countries, but don't they bump into pedestrians or other cars if they open the door without looking?
- brnt 7y ago
  I also drive in France. My experience is that French drivers only look through their front window. Mirrors, other windows, they seem to be there just for export ;) Also, cars are generally way more dented than back home. I've had accidents, and many more near-accidents because of this. Indeed, I'd never even considered that people actually just swinging open their doors onto bike lanes was a thing to watch out for until I moved to France. Must say Paris is better (less pressed) than Lyon (where I lived), and therefore a calmer ride.
- reportingsjr 7y ago
  This is incredibly common throughout the world. It is so common in fact, people have come up with a name for a "special" way to open doors to prevent this, the dutch reach. The dutch reach is just opening your door with the opposite hand you normally would, which forces you to rotate your body and look back where a cyclist would be coming from. In the US getting hit with a car door from someone not paying attention is appropriately called "getting doored" and is pretty far up there in things to look out for when biking!
  - Vinnl 7y ago
    I heard about the Dutch reach, and was just as surprised for the same reason: although I'm Dutch myself, it's not just cyclists I'm watching out for when getting out of a car, so it doesn't feel like the reason for doing the Dutch reach are specific to the Netherlands...
Fradow 7y ago
Parisian cyclist here: it's true that old bike infrastructure is bad (I have quite a lot of grips on my daily commute due to bad design), but that's not the case with new bike infrastructure. Some good examples of new bike infrastructure are Boulevard Sébastopol from Gare de l'Est to Chatelet, and rue Rivoli. Both of those streets are a delight to bike on, as they are straight, the path is wide, and it is clearly separated from both motorists and pedestrians. Let's hope they follow that kind of design for new infrastructure. Since it's a plan already on-going, I'm not too worried. We'll just have to live with existing bad infrastructure for a while.
tonyedgecombe 7y ago
It's going to take a long time for the rest of Europe to catch up with the Netherlands. Hopefully not quite as long as it took the Netherlands to get where they are.
eeZah7Ux 7y ago
It's hardly a matter of experience...

by brnt 7y ago

tasogare 7y ago

> Under her plans, Paris was to remove 72% of its on-street car parking spaces. Totally a political promise made by the kind of people who think subway tickets cost 5€ and only use official cars that comes with driver and parking. I hate cars in Paris as much as anyone, but they are required in a number of cases and this measure will hugely impact negatively the mid-class and poors that needs to commute to Paris for work, while not impacting the (very) richs that can live in the center.

rossng 7y ago
This is a common refrain, but I don't think it's supported by evidence. The poorest people cannot afford own a car[1] - and one can hypothesise that the high entry cost (purchasing a car, buying insurance) is a significant reason for this. Other methods of transport, such as cycling, walking, buses and trains do not have this high entry cost and so are much more accessible for the most disadvantaged people in our society. It's also critical to have a strong urban planning policy that allows people to live near to where jobs and transport hubs are. Suburbs inherently advantage car owners (and, consequently, the richer people that can afford to own a car). [1] See, for example, data from the UK: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/expenditure/datasets/percentageofhouseholdswithcarsbyincomegrouptenureandhouseholdcompositionuktablea47 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personal...
bleuarff 7y ago
I don't think people commuting to Paris for work use public parking space, the cost is much too high for everyday 9-to-5 usage. Either they use public transports, or have a private parking space at work. In both case they're not impacted by reducing public park space.
orwin 7y ago
It will impact the upper to middle class who go to paris to visit or to shop, and maybe homeless people living in their cars. middleclass commuters don't park on on-street car parking place, and poor, non-homeless people don't own a car when living in or close to Paris. Also subway cost 35€ a month (well, 70 if you're not working), or ~20 a week if you're a tourist (unless you take one-use ticket, but don't do that, especially if you arrive by the airport). One-use ticket if you stay within Paris last 2 hours and cost ~2€, but it is more expensive if you're not actually in Paris (i think its 15€ from CDG to the center).

patall 7y ago

I cannot agree more. I am so annoyed that there is good number of new cycle lanes are created along the busiest street in the area. Not that there are no parallel roads that are much nicer but no, you have to build them were all the noise, bad air and danger is. Same for cross country bike paths that tag along a cross country roads and sometimes even the motorway. No wonder almost nobody uses those.

brnt 7y ago
Actually, that's by far the best cycle path right now in French cities: find a quiet parallel road (probably no more than one street over) and cycle there.
- buckminster 7y ago
  Where I live Waze ensures that quiet parallel roads are a thing of the past.

reallydontask 7y ago

> Let's hope that they have it be designed by actually experienced road designers, and/or people who commute by bike Indeed. It's a similar experience in the UK where a lot of the bike paths seemed designed to meet council goals rather than be usable. Near me we have several stretches of dedicated bike paths, sadly unconnected between them and one leads into a fence (I wish I were making it up, though to be charitable maybe the project run out of money before they could complete it) No doubt the council congratulated themselves on building ~ 1.5 miles of bike paths that year.

mattmanser 7y ago
They spent millions making one in Nottingham on an already low-traffic road that is regularly bisected by junctions. Cars, of course, pull up to wait in the cycleway, without looking. So not only is it pointless because it's not a busy road, it's also extremely dangerous.
tonyedgecombe 7y ago
My nearest town got a white line down the main road. It's actually worse than nothing because it's full of potholes and you get grief from drivers if you ride outside it.
- everyone 7y ago
  Hey, a motorist who sees you and gives you grief is many times less likely to kill you then one who simply doesnt see you. Grief from motorists is good when ure a cyclist (not optimal, but good) Being visible to motorists is the #1 thing u can do to be safer. You just cycle wherever and however is physically safest, the road laws and regulations are not designed to keep you safe, they're designed for motorists to be able zoom around wherever they want unimpeded by anything. The only law you should be concerned about are the laws of physics. When motorists are beeping at me, I take it as a beautiful fanfare to celebrate 'safety achieved' hurray hurray you can see me!
  - tonyedgecombe 7y ago

Luc 7y ago

I believe it will take a few generations. They'll probably make sub-optimal designs taking into account the local car culture. If they're lucky in 15 years they'll again have a mayor interested in advancing bicycling, and they'll improve the design, with car drivers more aware of bicycles by then. Repeat every time the roads are rebuilt. Other countries never seem to take the shortcut to a proven, optimal design. Not Invented Here syndrome.

black_puppydog 7y ago

Here in grenoble they opened a bunch of new lanes last year, and one stretch in a very busy road is actually in the middle between the two car lanes, on slightly raised ground, like 10cm, enough to make a bump if you cross over with a car, but that's all. At first I hated the idea but once I was on there for the first time it immediately became clear to me that whoever had planned this had thought more about it than I ever did in my last five years of bike-commuting. Being in the middle means that bicycles of both directions share space (which feels much more generous than sharing with cars) and you're never next to parking cars, at risk of being doored. So yeah, there's a lot of improvement to be made with simple changes like this. I hope they seize the opportunity.

Kyro38 7y ago
Same city. Other advantage is that you won't be bothered by the buses and their stops !
kaybe 7y ago
A disadvantage of that placement should be the pollution you're exposed to. Even small displacements of the bikepath next to the road have a large impact already. I cannot wait for internal combustion engines in cities to die out.
- Mediterraneo10 7y ago
  Re: pollution, at least now riders are likely to be riding with something over their face and nose, even if it isn’t a high-grade safety mask.
  - joncrane 7y ago
    I don't think masks filter the kind of pollution that is really harmful (fumes, not particles).
    - Mediterraneo10 7y ago
      They must have some effect, inasmuch as cyclists and motorbike drivers in highly polluted cities like Kathmandu and Delhi wear at least a cloth over their mouths for their own comfort.

Vinnl 7y ago

> (French motorists don't check where they swing their doors) I don't understand how this happens. I haven't lived in other countries, but don't they bump into pedestrians or other cars if they open the door without looking?

brnt 7y ago
I also drive in France. My experience is that French drivers only look through their front window. Mirrors, other windows, they seem to be there just for export ;) Also, cars are generally way more dented than back home. I've had accidents, and many more near-accidents because of this. Indeed, I'd never even considered that people actually just swinging open their doors onto bike lanes was a thing to watch out for until I moved to France. Must say Paris is better (less pressed) than Lyon (where I lived), and therefore a calmer ride.
reportingsjr 7y ago
This is incredibly common throughout the world. It is so common in fact, people have come up with a name for a "special" way to open doors to prevent this, the dutch reach. The dutch reach is just opening your door with the opposite hand you normally would, which forces you to rotate your body and look back where a cyclist would be coming from. In the US getting hit with a car door from someone not paying attention is appropriately called "getting doored" and is pretty far up there in things to look out for when biking!
- Vinnl 7y ago
  I heard about the Dutch reach, and was just as surprised for the same reason: although I'm Dutch myself, it's not just cyclists I'm watching out for when getting out of a car, so it doesn't feel like the reason for doing the Dutch reach are specific to the Netherlands...

Fradow 7y ago

Parisian cyclist here: it's true that old bike infrastructure is bad (I have quite a lot of grips on my daily commute due to bad design), but that's not the case with new bike infrastructure. Some good examples of new bike infrastructure are Boulevard Sébastopol from Gare de l'Est to Chatelet, and rue Rivoli. Both of those streets are a delight to bike on, as they are straight, the path is wide, and it is clearly separated from both motorists and pedestrians. Let's hope they follow that kind of design for new infrastructure. Since it's a plan already on-going, I'm not too worried. We'll just have to live with existing bad infrastructure for a while.

tonyedgecombe 7y ago

It's going to take a long time for the rest of Europe to catch up with the Netherlands. Hopefully not quite as long as it took the Netherlands to get where they are.

eeZah7Ux 7y ago

It's hardly a matter of experience...