8 ms·

Paris to Create 650 Kilometers of Post-Lockdown Cycleways

221 points by mpweiher 7y ago

fergie 7y ago
Makes sense. Paris is currently not quite as cycle friendly as you might think, given its early adoption of bike sharing and close association with cyclesport.
- docdeek 7y ago
  Can confirm. Cycling in Paris can feel downright dangerous on the roads, and even the existing cycle paths can feel a bit dangerous as tourists (in particular, but not always, in my experience) are not used to looking around for the pathways. The French city where I live (Lyon) also has some ambitious cycle way plans, though these have been in development since well before COVID-19.
- himinlomax 7y ago
  I live in Paris and almost only travel by bicycle. It all depends where you're going, but it's improved drastically in the past few years. In fact it started with Vélib, the sudden increase in bikes forced other road users to expect bikes and act accordingly.
ejolto 7y ago
I hope they actually separate the cycle path from the road with a physical barrier and not just a yellow line like the photo in the article.
- blackrock 7y ago
  This is the way.
- diggan 7y ago
  Don't be too hopeful about that. Barcelona in general is a bicycle-friendly city, and most of the city-center bikelanes looks like this (lane on the furthest right is the bi-directional bicycle lane): https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3894796,2.1634847,3a,75y,66.49h,82.65t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sinf92SDCbqjnDPiWywm1Iw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dinf92SDCbqjnDPiWywm1Iw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D216.94206%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3894796,2.1634847,3a,75y,66.... Most people seem fine with this arrangement, we're pretty used to tight spaces, for people, cars, motorcycles and bicycles. Maybe this lane is only fine because we don't have as much bicycle traffic as Amsterdam or Copenhagen, but seems to work well right now.
  - Symbiote 7y ago
    "Armadillos" I think that's pretty reasonable. Most lanes in the UK are just the paint, without the plastic armadillos, and usually without the extra 30cm width.
kazinator 7y ago
A lot of the pre-post-lockdown talk by politicians will have a way of vaporizing post-lockdown.
brnt 7y ago
Let's hope that they have it be designed by actually experienced road designers, and/or people who commute by bike. So much a French bike infra is so clearly build by people who never use it. Turns too sharp, cycle lanes next to parking strips (French motorists don't check where they swing their doors), lanes that end a busy intersections (creating intersection arenas), places where you need them the most... I'm from the Netherlands and I see there's a serious effort in France, but before they build anymore they really need to get some experience into the design. Much of the infra barely helps having a safe and comfortable commute like we have back home.
- tasogare 7y ago
  > Under her plans, Paris was to remove 72% of its on-street car parking spaces. Totally a political promise made by the kind of people who think subway tickets cost 5€ and only use official cars that comes with driver and parking. I hate cars in Paris as much as anyone, but they are required in a number of cases and this measure will hugely impact negatively the mid-class and poors that needs to commute to Paris for work, while not impacting the (very) richs that can live in the center.
  - rossng 7y ago
    This is a common refrain, but I don't think it's supported by evidence. The poorest people cannot afford own a car[1] - and one can hypothesise that the high entry cost (purchasing a car, buying insurance) is a significant reason for this. Other methods of transport, such as cycling, walking, buses and trains do not have this high entry cost and so are much more accessible for the most disadvantaged people in our society. It's also critical to have a strong urban planning policy that allows people to live near to where jobs and transport hubs are. Suburbs inherently advantage car owners (and, consequently, the richer people that can afford to own a car). [1] See, for example, data from the UK: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/expenditure/datasets/percentageofhouseholdswithcarsbyincomegrouptenureandhouseholdcompositionuktablea47 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personal...
  - bleuarff 7y ago
axegon_ 7y ago
This is pretty awesome. But even though as a cyclist myself, I am a bit uncertain about bicycle lanes in Europe as a whole(maybe except Greece, Italy, Spain, Malta, Portugal and so on, where the weather allows it). Let's take my situation for instance, given that Greece is just 250-300 km south from me: During the period between October and April cycling is pretty much impossible unless you have a death wish - starting with heavy rain, followed by a meter of snow and ice. That's 6 months out of the year during which those lanes and paths are practically unusable. Sure, there are a few enthusiasts that will carry on even in those conditions(and I know one or two of those) but in any case, for 98% of cyclist, this is unthinkable(myself included). So in those 6 months, that whole are is simply unusable, while traffic jams expand beyond reason.
- Cthulhu_ 7y ago
  In (arguably) worse conditions, Finland, they just convert the bike/pedestrian lanes to snow scooter lanes elevated on two meters of snow.
- Symbiote 7y ago
  In Denmark, the cycle lanes are swept clear of snow before the driving lanes. There's slightly higher car and public transport use in the winter, but most people don't stop cycling. > as a cyclist myself, Also, people here don't identify themselves like that. Just like people don't say "I'm a driver" unless it's their job to drive a bus, taxi or truck. I cycle to work, but it's not part of my identity.
  - axegon_ 7y ago
    OK those are just semantics. I generally walk to work(it's ~4km largely through green areas so a nice walk in the morning and evening). Somehow the idea of carrying a backpack with an extra pair of clothes and having to shower at work isn't very appealing to me. Semantically I mean "cyclist" as in I'll go for a joyride in the evenings and 5-6 hours during weekends. When it's nice and dry that is, rain and water probably bugs me more than you I suspect... And a lot of people around here by the looks of it.
mino 7y ago
Milan is planning the same: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/21/milan-seeks-to-prevent-post-crisis-return-of-traffic-pollution https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/21/milan-seeks-to...
buboard 7y ago
considering how sars2 may be infecting through aerosols, it might not be a great idea to cycle for high-risk people . OTOH, keeping people outdoors reduces the infection rate by 19 times , and the sunlight kills the virus in 3 minutes, so anything that promotes outdoor instead of indoor congregations is good https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016041202031254X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016041202... https://news.yahoo.com/sunlight-destroys-coronavirus-very-quickly-new-government-tests-find-but-experts-say-pandemic-could-still-last-through-summer-200745675.html https://news.yahoo.com/sunlight-destroys-coronavirus-very-qu...
hazeii 7y ago
Isn't the most interesting point about this the assumption that people are going to abandon public transport in favour of cars when the lockdowns end? That seems to suggest we'll have more crowded roads with reduced capacity (due to the added cycleways); maybe I'm being too pessimistic though, and we'll see a big switch to WFH.
- gregoriol 7y ago
  During the transport strikes last december/january, Paris had a huge surge in commuting by foot/bike/scooters; it is possible to make it happen again, it worked well, actually so well that bike lanes became too crowded, sometimes more than car lanes. I think they are aiming to make the same kind of "behavior" happen after may 11th, but enhanced. Cars were in surge too at that time mostly for people not living inside Paris but needing to go inside, since the distance plus less bike lanes in the cities around makes bikes impractical for that use case. That's likely to happen again, sadly there is no good way to solve both inside-inside and inside-outside street sharing at the same time...
- Vinnl 7y ago
  > That seems to suggest we'll have more crowded roads with reduced capacity (due to the added cycleways); The goal of course is to have people actually use the cycleways, which should increase capacity: you can fit multiple cyclists in the space used by a single car driver.
  - baud147258 7y ago
    Except that in Paris those that take a car aren't exactly doing commutes that can be done by bikes
    - diggan 7y ago
      Of course not everyone who is driving will immediately switch to bikes, that would be unexpected. But many do use cars when they could have used bikes, but because the infrastructure is poor, they chose cars. The ones that come from outside the city can now park within range of their work and bike the rest. Paris is notable for it's shitty traffic (and drivers...), so many would want to switch to bikes, just to avoid going insane.
naskwo 7y ago
Love it. London next?
PeterStuer 7y ago
Any cycle path that is created with just a bucket of paint is not a cycle path. I wonder how many of those kilometers will fail this test.
- anotheryou 7y ago
  I'd think getting the space is a good first step and the harder part politically, no? Here is Berlin, but also just temporary for now: https://www.cdu-friedrichshain-kreuzberg.de/image/news/238.jpg https://www.cdu-friedrichshain-kreuzberg.de/image/news/238.j... (in other areas parking cars in between road and cycle way)
  - PeterStuer 7y ago
    I'm not saying it isn't good as a quick fix temporary measure, but over here in Belgium this has been consistently used to pretty up the cycling path numbers while doing nothing. We even invented "cyclist suggestion paths" ("fietssuggestiestroken" colloquially referred to as "paths of shame" (schaamstroken) [1]), which are not cycling lanes as they explicitly allow cars to ride on them, but just a color painted onto the right hand side of the car lane to advice cyclists not to ride side-by-side (which is their right within inner-city limits) but ride on the narrow painted strip behind each other, So this is an anti-cycling measure, and it still is counted as "cycling infrastructure". [1] https://fietsbult.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/moscou7c.jpg https://fietsbult.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/moscou7c.jpg
    - labawi 7y ago
      Wow, you're allowed to ride side-by-side. Is that common in other countries? Over here cars honk, even if 2 cyclists take only 1/2 a lane of 2 same-direction lanes and <5 cars pass in a minute. OTOH, if you ride the same, except the sheltered cyclist isn't there, they don't make a fuss even in moderate traffic - they just don't like you talking.
- yosito 7y ago
  A painted bike path is a placeholder for a more dedicated bike path in the future. An anectodal example: the first time I was in Las Palmas, Gran Canaria, there was a four lane road in which two of the lanes had been painted green and blocked off with small planters on every block. I'm back here now in 2020, and the entire road has been converted to a pedestrian-only road for about 8 city blocks. There are retractable barriers at either end allowing for utility vehicles.
thisiswarry 7y ago
Paris is in the middle of an election (aborted by lock-down). don't trust wha tyou read.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  Give us a reason to trust this comment, then.
  - thisiswarry 7y ago
    it's just a campaign announce. there are no plans, no budget, no nothing. it definitely does not deserve HN front page.
- touktouk 7y ago
  This plan is supported by the region (~ state) rather than the city of Paris. Next regional elections are in March 2021.
Noos 7y ago
...i think there's a lot more important issues that cycleways, to be blunt. Cycleways aren't going to help the tons of people that are out of jobs or lose their jobs if we have any post-pandemic economic slowdowns, and a lot of regions that depend on tourism are going to suffer a massive hit. This is tending to the needs of the rich.
raarts 7y ago
Never let a good crisis go to waste. Having a fantastic cycling infrastructure didn't help us here in the Netherlands. We have one of the highest death rates in Europe.

221 points by mpweiher 7y ago

Makes sense. Paris is currently not quite as cycle friendly as you might think, given its early adoption of bike sharing and close association with cyclesport.

docdeek 7y ago
Can confirm. Cycling in Paris can feel downright dangerous on the roads, and even the existing cycle paths can feel a bit dangerous as tourists (in particular, but not always, in my experience) are not used to looking around for the pathways. The French city where I live (Lyon) also has some ambitious cycle way plans, though these have been in development since well before COVID-19.
himinlomax 7y ago
I live in Paris and almost only travel by bicycle. It all depends where you're going, but it's improved drastically in the past few years. In fact it started with Vélib, the sudden increase in bikes forced other road users to expect bikes and act accordingly.

ejolto 7y ago

I hope they actually separate the cycle path from the road with a physical barrier and not just a yellow line like the photo in the article.

blackrock 7y ago
This is the way.
diggan 7y ago
Don't be too hopeful about that. Barcelona in general is a bicycle-friendly city, and most of the city-center bikelanes looks like this (lane on the furthest right is the bi-directional bicycle lane): https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3894796,2.1634847,3a,75y,66.49h,82.65t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sinf92SDCbqjnDPiWywm1Iw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dinf92SDCbqjnDPiWywm1Iw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D216.94206%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3894796,2.1634847,3a,75y,66.... Most people seem fine with this arrangement, we're pretty used to tight spaces, for people, cars, motorcycles and bicycles. Maybe this lane is only fine because we don't have as much bicycle traffic as Amsterdam or Copenhagen, but seems to work well right now.
- Symbiote 7y ago
  "Armadillos" I think that's pretty reasonable. Most lanes in the UK are just the paint, without the plastic armadillos, and usually without the extra 30cm width.

kazinator 7y ago

A lot of the pre-post-lockdown talk by politicians will have a way of vaporizing post-lockdown.

brnt 7y ago

Let's hope that they have it be designed by actually experienced road designers, and/or people who commute by bike. So much a French bike infra is so clearly build by people who never use it. Turns too sharp, cycle lanes next to parking strips (French motorists don't check where they swing their doors), lanes that end a busy intersections (creating intersection arenas), places where you need them the most... I'm from the Netherlands and I see there's a serious effort in France, but before they build anymore they really need to get some experience into the design. Much of the infra barely helps having a safe and comfortable commute like we have back home.

tasogare 7y ago
> Under her plans, Paris was to remove 72% of its on-street car parking spaces. Totally a political promise made by the kind of people who think subway tickets cost 5€ and only use official cars that comes with driver and parking. I hate cars in Paris as much as anyone, but they are required in a number of cases and this measure will hugely impact negatively the mid-class and poors that needs to commute to Paris for work, while not impacting the (very) richs that can live in the center.
- rossng 7y ago
  This is a common refrain, but I don't think it's supported by evidence. The poorest people cannot afford own a car[1] - and one can hypothesise that the high entry cost (purchasing a car, buying insurance) is a significant reason for this. Other methods of transport, such as cycling, walking, buses and trains do not have this high entry cost and so are much more accessible for the most disadvantaged people in our society. It's also critical to have a strong urban planning policy that allows people to live near to where jobs and transport hubs are. Suburbs inherently advantage car owners (and, consequently, the richer people that can afford to own a car). [1] See, for example, data from the UK: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/expenditure/datasets/percentageofhouseholdswithcarsbyincomegrouptenureandhouseholdcompositionuktablea47 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personal...
- bleuarff 7y ago

axegon_ 7y ago

This is pretty awesome. But even though as a cyclist myself, I am a bit uncertain about bicycle lanes in Europe as a whole(maybe except Greece, Italy, Spain, Malta, Portugal and so on, where the weather allows it). Let's take my situation for instance, given that Greece is just 250-300 km south from me: During the period between October and April cycling is pretty much impossible unless you have a death wish - starting with heavy rain, followed by a meter of snow and ice. That's 6 months out of the year during which those lanes and paths are practically unusable. Sure, there are a few enthusiasts that will carry on even in those conditions(and I know one or two of those) but in any case, for 98% of cyclist, this is unthinkable(myself included). So in those 6 months, that whole are is simply unusable, while traffic jams expand beyond reason.

Cthulhu_ 7y ago
In (arguably) worse conditions, Finland, they just convert the bike/pedestrian lanes to snow scooter lanes elevated on two meters of snow.
Symbiote 7y ago
In Denmark, the cycle lanes are swept clear of snow before the driving lanes. There's slightly higher car and public transport use in the winter, but most people don't stop cycling. > as a cyclist myself, Also, people here don't identify themselves like that. Just like people don't say "I'm a driver" unless it's their job to drive a bus, taxi or truck. I cycle to work, but it's not part of my identity.
- axegon_ 7y ago
  OK those are just semantics. I generally walk to work(it's ~4km largely through green areas so a nice walk in the morning and evening). Somehow the idea of carrying a backpack with an extra pair of clothes and having to shower at work isn't very appealing to me. Semantically I mean "cyclist" as in I'll go for a joyride in the evenings and 5-6 hours during weekends. When it's nice and dry that is, rain and water probably bugs me more than you I suspect... And a lot of people around here by the looks of it.

mino 7y ago

Milan is planning the same: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/21/milan-seeks-to-prevent-post-crisis-return-of-traffic-pollution https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/21/milan-seeks-to...

buboard 7y ago

considering how sars2 may be infecting through aerosols, it might not be a great idea to cycle for high-risk people . OTOH, keeping people outdoors reduces the infection rate by 19 times , and the sunlight kills the virus in 3 minutes, so anything that promotes outdoor instead of indoor congregations is good https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016041202031254X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016041202... https://news.yahoo.com/sunlight-destroys-coronavirus-very-quickly-new-government-tests-find-but-experts-say-pandemic-could-still-last-through-summer-200745675.html https://news.yahoo.com/sunlight-destroys-coronavirus-very-qu...

hazeii 7y ago

Isn't the most interesting point about this the assumption that people are going to abandon public transport in favour of cars when the lockdowns end? That seems to suggest we'll have more crowded roads with reduced capacity (due to the added cycleways); maybe I'm being too pessimistic though, and we'll see a big switch to WFH.

gregoriol 7y ago
During the transport strikes last december/january, Paris had a huge surge in commuting by foot/bike/scooters; it is possible to make it happen again, it worked well, actually so well that bike lanes became too crowded, sometimes more than car lanes. I think they are aiming to make the same kind of "behavior" happen after may 11th, but enhanced. Cars were in surge too at that time mostly for people not living inside Paris but needing to go inside, since the distance plus less bike lanes in the cities around makes bikes impractical for that use case. That's likely to happen again, sadly there is no good way to solve both inside-inside and inside-outside street sharing at the same time...
Vinnl 7y ago
> That seems to suggest we'll have more crowded roads with reduced capacity (due to the added cycleways); The goal of course is to have people actually use the cycleways, which should increase capacity: you can fit multiple cyclists in the space used by a single car driver.
- baud147258 7y ago
  Except that in Paris those that take a car aren't exactly doing commutes that can be done by bikes
  - diggan 7y ago
    Of course not everyone who is driving will immediately switch to bikes, that would be unexpected. But many do use cars when they could have used bikes, but because the infrastructure is poor, they chose cars. The ones that come from outside the city can now park within range of their work and bike the rest. Paris is notable for it's shitty traffic (and drivers...), so many would want to switch to bikes, just to avoid going insane.

naskwo 7y ago

Love it. London next?

PeterStuer 7y ago

Any cycle path that is created with just a bucket of paint is not a cycle path. I wonder how many of those kilometers will fail this test.

anotheryou 7y ago
I'd think getting the space is a good first step and the harder part politically, no? Here is Berlin, but also just temporary for now: https://www.cdu-friedrichshain-kreuzberg.de/image/news/238.jpg https://www.cdu-friedrichshain-kreuzberg.de/image/news/238.j... (in other areas parking cars in between road and cycle way)
- PeterStuer 7y ago
  I'm not saying it isn't good as a quick fix temporary measure, but over here in Belgium this has been consistently used to pretty up the cycling path numbers while doing nothing. We even invented "cyclist suggestion paths" ("fietssuggestiestroken" colloquially referred to as "paths of shame" (schaamstroken) [1]), which are not cycling lanes as they explicitly allow cars to ride on them, but just a color painted onto the right hand side of the car lane to advice cyclists not to ride side-by-side (which is their right within inner-city limits) but ride on the narrow painted strip behind each other, So this is an anti-cycling measure, and it still is counted as "cycling infrastructure". [1] https://fietsbult.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/moscou7c.jpg https://fietsbult.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/moscou7c.jpg
  - labawi 7y ago
    Wow, you're allowed to ride side-by-side. Is that common in other countries? Over here cars honk, even if 2 cyclists take only 1/2 a lane of 2 same-direction lanes and <5 cars pass in a minute. OTOH, if you ride the same, except the sheltered cyclist isn't there, they don't make a fuss even in moderate traffic - they just don't like you talking.
yosito 7y ago
A painted bike path is a placeholder for a more dedicated bike path in the future. An anectodal example: the first time I was in Las Palmas, Gran Canaria, there was a four lane road in which two of the lanes had been painted green and blocked off with small planters on every block. I'm back here now in 2020, and the entire road has been converted to a pedestrian-only road for about 8 city blocks. There are retractable barriers at either end allowing for utility vehicles.

thisiswarry 7y ago

Paris is in the middle of an election (aborted by lock-down). don't trust wha tyou read.

ceejayoz 7y ago
Give us a reason to trust this comment, then.
- thisiswarry 7y ago
  it's just a campaign announce. there are no plans, no budget, no nothing. it definitely does not deserve HN front page.
touktouk 7y ago
This plan is supported by the region (~ state) rather than the city of Paris. Next regional elections are in March 2021.

Noos 7y ago

...i think there's a lot more important issues that cycleways, to be blunt. Cycleways aren't going to help the tons of people that are out of jobs or lose their jobs if we have any post-pandemic economic slowdowns, and a lot of regions that depend on tourism are going to suffer a massive hit. This is tending to the needs of the rich.

raarts 7y ago

Never let a good crisis go to waste. Having a fantastic cycling infrastructure didn't help us here in the Netherlands. We have one of the highest death rates in Europe.