9 ms·

> The most senior developer (24yo or so) I see the problem there.

osrec 7y ago
I've seen older developers that call themselves senior, but lack basic knowledge. I've seen younger developers, wise well beyond their years. Age simply isn't a big factor in how you judge a developer.
- brabel 7y ago
  Just because you saw a few exception does not mean the rule does not hold in general. Or are you saying most people don't learn with time (a corollary of your theory that age is not a big factor)?
  - codegladiator 7y ago
    > most people don't learn with time I think this is correct. The curve flattens with age (in my opinion). > you saw a few exception I think the seniors you met (the knowledgeable ones) /were/ the exceptions. Most seniors I have seen have convinced themselves that they know all there is to know.
    - brabel 7y ago
      > Most seniors I have seen have convinced themselves that they know all there is to know. Yeah, seems we've met different kinds of seniors... I don't know any senior who wouldn't understand that "the more you know, the more you understand just how much you still don't know".
      - collyw 7y ago
        That quote is very true!
    - collyw 7y ago
      I am getting on a bit and its not that I think I know all there is to know, but I see so much new tech that seems like pointless unnecessary complexity. I reckon that more than 90% of apps could be done in a classical MVP, with a bit of JQuery and a well tuned database. Most new ideas are a rehash of something from decades ago. It gets rather tiring.
  - osrec 7y ago
    I would say that I have seen no discernible pattern, so I have learnt that it is imprudent to judge a developer by their age. People do learn over time, but some people learn more "cogently" than others, i.e. some get more out of one year's worth of learning than others get in 10.
    - Haydos585x2 7y ago
      The best thing I've seen on the topic is: "Some people have 10 years experience, some people have 1 years experience 10 times".
      - amznthrowaway5 7y ago
        That's misleading because it's too simplistic. A smart person could spend 10 years gaining real, legitimate experience and they could still be eclipsed by someone with little experience but much more talent.
        goto11 7y ago
        Talent is no substitute for experience.
        amznthrowaway5 7y ago
        I'd say it's mostly the other way around, experience can't substitute for high natural cognitive ability. Of course a person still needs experience, but people with high cognitive ability don't need nearly as much, and people with less cognitive ability will hit thresholds of capability much more quickly. A lot of people live in a bubble of people with similar ability so they don't grasp the true importance of ability. And fakers who learn nothing year over year but have "years of experience", extremely common in this industry, don't like being told there are 14 year olds way more capable than them at their own jobs.
        goto11 7y ago
  - Aeolun 7y ago
    Most people don’t magically grow wiser with time. They need to be in an environment where they can grow, otherwise they’ll emerge just as stupid as before.
    - shaklee3 7y ago
      The counterpoint is you need time to grow wise, and there's no way to get wise without many years of experience.
      - Aeolun 7y ago
        That’s also true. I guess that the relative percentage of people you’d call wise increases with age.
    - bregma 7y ago
      If you start out with a cohort of individuals across the spectrum of ability, over time many of those of lesser ability will self-select out of the pool. It is my experience (oops, see what I did there) that people rarely spend a career doing what they're not very good at. The exceptions inevitably stand out. So, combining the winnowing of the not-very-apt with the gaining of knowledge through experience, the end result is that you have a preponderance of wise old experienced contributors. I you are one of the younger inexperienced ones who believe they know better it's likely you'll self-select at some point, secure in your Dunning-Kreuger knowledge, and move to some career in which your high level of competence is valued more.
lanius 7y ago
Age is a just a number. John Carmack created Doom in his early 20s.
- throwaway3563 7y ago
  Every good rule has an exception.
  - 101404 7y ago
    Why not judge people by the result of their work, instead of their age?
    - dvtrn 7y ago
      Because then it’s harder to deal with our own imposter syndromes if we can’t blame it on the youth and hold their heads in the toilet while giving them the professional-development equivalent of a wedgie. This was discussed at length in last week’s “Grey Beard Weekly” newsletter.
      - 101404 7y ago
        So the "old people" are the bad guys for you, hmm. Then again, it's mostly "old people" who are discriminated against when it comes to hiring.
        eeZah7Ux 7y ago
        It seems so, and the fact that people are accusing me of ageism as I pointed out that a company hires only people below 24 years of age is very telling...
        detaro 7y ago
        You didn't point that out, you made a vague complaint about someones age, and the comment you replied to doesn't even give you a good basis to assume that, so it's no wonder nobody understood what you tried to hint at. Hint: in many companies, a project involves only a small part of the workforce.
0xy 7y ago
Shameless age discrimination. Very smart people exist at all ages. I've seen 21yo junior grad developers outperform 45yo 'senior' developers.
- quickthrower2 7y ago
  It's even more complex as you cant even say dev X > dev Y for all tasks. So the age thing is even more silly. After so many years you start forgetting the stuff you did (in detail) in the first years anyway.
- watwut 7y ago
  Seniority is not about how smart you are. And most programmers of any age are neither prodigies nor geniuses.
- collyw 7y ago
  It's unlikely (but not impossible) that a 24 year old developer has had much of the experience needed to be classed as properly senior.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- eeZah7Ux 7y ago
  Do not accuse people without evidence! I'm all against age discrimination. ..and when you see a company where the age cluster around a very small area you can tell age discrimination is happening. Which might very well be the case of the parent post.
- raarts 7y ago
  You're bringing up the exceptions that prove the rule as if they disprove it.

I've seen older developers that call themselves senior, but lack basic knowledge. I've seen younger developers, wise well beyond their years. Age simply isn't a big factor in how you judge a developer.

brabel 7y ago
Just because you saw a few exception does not mean the rule does not hold in general. Or are you saying most people don't learn with time (a corollary of your theory that age is not a big factor)?
- codegladiator 7y ago
  > most people don't learn with time I think this is correct. The curve flattens with age (in my opinion). > you saw a few exception I think the seniors you met (the knowledgeable ones) /were/ the exceptions. Most seniors I have seen have convinced themselves that they know all there is to know.
  - brabel 7y ago
    > Most seniors I have seen have convinced themselves that they know all there is to know. Yeah, seems we've met different kinds of seniors... I don't know any senior who wouldn't understand that "the more you know, the more you understand just how much you still don't know".
    - collyw 7y ago
      That quote is very true!
  - collyw 7y ago
    I am getting on a bit and its not that I think I know all there is to know, but I see so much new tech that seems like pointless unnecessary complexity. I reckon that more than 90% of apps could be done in a classical MVP, with a bit of JQuery and a well tuned database. Most new ideas are a rehash of something from decades ago. It gets rather tiring.
- osrec 7y ago
  I would say that I have seen no discernible pattern, so I have learnt that it is imprudent to judge a developer by their age. People do learn over time, but some people learn more "cogently" than others, i.e. some get more out of one year's worth of learning than others get in 10.
  - Haydos585x2 7y ago
    The best thing I've seen on the topic is: "Some people have 10 years experience, some people have 1 years experience 10 times".
    - amznthrowaway5 7y ago
      That's misleading because it's too simplistic. A smart person could spend 10 years gaining real, legitimate experience and they could still be eclipsed by someone with little experience but much more talent.
      - goto11 7y ago
        Talent is no substitute for experience.
        amznthrowaway5 7y ago
        I'd say it's mostly the other way around, experience can't substitute for high natural cognitive ability. Of course a person still needs experience, but people with high cognitive ability don't need nearly as much, and people with less cognitive ability will hit thresholds of capability much more quickly. A lot of people live in a bubble of people with similar ability so they don't grasp the true importance of ability. And fakers who learn nothing year over year but have "years of experience", extremely common in this industry, don't like being told there are 14 year olds way more capable than them at their own jobs.
        goto11 7y ago
- Aeolun 7y ago
  Most people don’t magically grow wiser with time. They need to be in an environment where they can grow, otherwise they’ll emerge just as stupid as before.
  - shaklee3 7y ago
    The counterpoint is you need time to grow wise, and there's no way to get wise without many years of experience.
    - Aeolun 7y ago
      That’s also true. I guess that the relative percentage of people you’d call wise increases with age.
  - bregma 7y ago
    If you start out with a cohort of individuals across the spectrum of ability, over time many of those of lesser ability will self-select out of the pool. It is my experience (oops, see what I did there) that people rarely spend a career doing what they're not very good at. The exceptions inevitably stand out. So, combining the winnowing of the not-very-apt with the gaining of knowledge through experience, the end result is that you have a preponderance of wise old experienced contributors. I you are one of the younger inexperienced ones who believe they know better it's likely you'll self-select at some point, secure in your Dunning-Kreuger knowledge, and move to some career in which your high level of competence is valued more.

lanius 7y ago

Age is a just a number. John Carmack created Doom in his early 20s.

throwaway3563 7y ago
Every good rule has an exception.
- 101404 7y ago
  Why not judge people by the result of their work, instead of their age?
  - dvtrn 7y ago
    Because then it’s harder to deal with our own imposter syndromes if we can’t blame it on the youth and hold their heads in the toilet while giving them the professional-development equivalent of a wedgie. This was discussed at length in last week’s “Grey Beard Weekly” newsletter.
    - 101404 7y ago
      So the "old people" are the bad guys for you, hmm. Then again, it's mostly "old people" who are discriminated against when it comes to hiring.
      - eeZah7Ux 7y ago
        It seems so, and the fact that people are accusing me of ageism as I pointed out that a company hires only people below 24 years of age is very telling...
        detaro 7y ago
        You didn't point that out, you made a vague complaint about someones age, and the comment you replied to doesn't even give you a good basis to assume that, so it's no wonder nobody understood what you tried to hint at. Hint: in many companies, a project involves only a small part of the workforce.

0xy 7y ago

Shameless age discrimination. Very smart people exist at all ages. I've seen 21yo junior grad developers outperform 45yo 'senior' developers.

quickthrower2 7y ago
It's even more complex as you cant even say dev X > dev Y for all tasks. So the age thing is even more silly. After so many years you start forgetting the stuff you did (in detail) in the first years anyway.
watwut 7y ago
Seniority is not about how smart you are. And most programmers of any age are neither prodigies nor geniuses.
collyw 7y ago
It's unlikely (but not impossible) that a 24 year old developer has had much of the experience needed to be classed as properly senior.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
eeZah7Ux 7y ago
Do not accuse people without evidence! I'm all against age discrimination. ..and when you see a company where the age cluster around a very small area you can tell age discrimination is happening. Which might very well be the case of the parent post.
raarts 7y ago
You're bringing up the exceptions that prove the rule as if they disprove it.