8 ms·

There are plenty of programs exactly like that in the US.

lsh123 6y ago
Not at that level, I have 3 kids of various ages from elementary school to college ;) There is a HUGE difference in the programs from who is selected into the program to program goals.
- ummwhat 6y ago
  For the sake of example, how was Soviet Science high school different from Stuyvesant/Brooklyn Tech/Bronx school of Science? (Just to name the ones I know of).
  - lsh123 6y ago
    I am not very familiar with these schools, I am in CA. I think the biggest factor for me during my high school years was several hours per week of 1-1 discussions with currently active mathematicians and grad students. While formal math is really hard to read, a lot of ideas are very elegant and actually simple. It’s hard to find these ideas in a formal math text, but you can explain a lot of things in 1-1 setting while still allow student to “discover” core concepts on their own. Mathematics is not about solving 100 problems of one type ;)
    - novok 6y ago
      This is what infuriates me about college level mathematics from about 12 years ago at least. Why can't they also explain it like they do in those 1-1 sessions instead of making calculus textbooks that assume you know set theory before set theory is taught in some of the worst most obtuse writing there is. I'm glad there is khan academy now, but come on.
      - screye 6y ago
        You would love 3B1B. He teaches undergrad level math with his youtube videos in the most intuitive way I've ever seen on video.
      - zozbot234 6y ago
        The very point of 1-1 sessions is to start with an awareness of your existing knowledge background (set theory or not?) and to aim for real mastery in the most effective way. Unfortunately 1-1 sessions don't scale, while at least khan academy does.
      - lsh123 6y ago
        There are good reasons why formal texts are important but I can’t agree more that this is not a good way to teach math if there is nothing else available. But you also need to learn how to read these texts at the end because this is the way mathematicians communicate to each other ;) Re 1-1: the biggest advantage is that students can rediscover things. It’s one experience to read or listen to a proof, and it is completely different experience when you discover it yourself with small hints from the teacher.
        novok 6y ago
        I don't think formal texts should go away, just things equivalent to those well done, plain spoken, 1-1 explanations need to be right beside them in the textbooks. They often are not. Also math tends to have a documentation problem that could learn a lot from software engineering. Single letter variables are not acceptable in most coding for a simple example.
      - lsh123 6y ago
        And another point, high school and college level math is coming from the 18th and early 19th centuries. All of it can be explained without formalization from 1920-30 and students for non-mathematical degrees will understand it much better. I can explain sets to elementary school kids in 10 minutes ;)
    - jackpirate 6y ago
      I know lots of UC math/cs profs who meet 1-1 with high school students every week. Currently, the process is pretty informal, where local high school students just knock on the doors of professors until one agrees to regular meetings. UC Riverside is in the process of opening up a high school directly on the campus grounds to make the process more formal.
  - lsh123 6y ago
    And another factor, also coming from 1-1 tutoring, is that nobody waits for others. You can move ahead as fast as you can and actually you get more attention if you are ahead of class. As the result, while everyone knows the same fundamental theorems, some students have a chance to learn A LOT more.
  - myegorov 6y ago
    I'm not familiar with Stuyvesant, TJHSST and the like. The best Russian schools follow the Konstantinov [1] tradition of "listki" (handouts), where each student is essentially guided to re-invent the math curriculum by solving problems. There're no textbooks or lectures. You solve problems from the handouts at your own pace and discuss them with a TA when ready (typically volunteers from among former graduates of the same school). You can get some taste of these handouts for grades 8 and above from https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdev.mccme.ru%2F~merzon%2Flistki.html https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%... [1] https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fpolit.ru%2Farticle%2F2010%2F09%2F29%2Fmatheducation%2F https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=ru&tl=en&u=htt...
gabaix 6y ago
Can you elaborate? I am interested in knowing about these programs for my son.
- freepor 6y ago
  1) accelerated classes, 2) magnet schools, 3) statewide magnet schools, 4) high school research programs
- wallflower 6y ago
  Look into Art of Problem Solving (AOPS). https://artofproblemsolving.com/ https://artofproblemsolving.com/
- chris_va 6y ago
  Which state are you in? Public resources differ quite a bit by state. Privately, I would look at: https://cty.jhu.edu/ https://cty.jhu.edu/
  - gabaix 6y ago
    Thanks! I am in California (Bay Area)
freepor 6y ago
But they are not on the federal level, with the benefits and disadvantages of this. The benefit is that they don't get dragged into partisan politics and have their agendas changed every four years. The disadvantage is in reach and scale. In some countries they can get the top 2000 middle school math students across the country into the same campus. In the US it's more like the Top 100 students in Virginia, which is a different experience.
knzhou 6y ago
There are now, not so much 40 years ago. Even today, a lot of the STEM enrichment programs in the US have roots in the USSR. Hell, a big fraction of the physics problems I assign when tutoring these days were written by Russians in the 80s, because they're just that good.
- enjo 6y ago
  Anecdotal I know but I went to an entire school for “gifted” students in Texas in the 80’s.
  - jessriedel 6y ago
    40 years ago is 1980, so that seems consistent with his comment. Also consistent is that Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology in Virginia, which has been ranked #1 and is generally in the top ten US high schools, was founded in 1985.
    - hncommenter13 6y ago
      Bronx Science was founded in 1938. It has graduated eight nobel prize winners, seven in physics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronx_High_School_of_Science https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronx_High_School_of_Science And, per Wikipedia, many of the faculty came from Stuyvesant, founded 1904 (which has itself had 4 nobel prize winners). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuyvesant_High_School https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuyvesant_High_School
- WillPostForFood 6y ago
  That's the opposite of what I've seen in California. There used to be a big focus on tracking, gifted programs and "accelerated math", but it is now perceived as inequitable. Gifted programs were cancelled, tracks eliminated, and accelerated math discouraged (you can skip a year if you study outside school, but it is discouraged). The focus is getting everyone to some minimal level, and no attention on the high performers.
  - 6y ago
astura 6y ago
Only in some very limited areas. I guess private programs exist too, but your parents would have to have knowledge of them plus the time, money, and wherewithal. I am absolutely certain nothing like this was available to any kid in my schools growing up.
- asdff 6y ago
  I'm not sure the total scope or worth really of the program in Los Angeles, but there are requirements just to apply (1), and slots at the highest scoring schools appear pretty limited (2). It's also not an automatic thing, so a parent will have to be informed about the program and have the time to fill out the paperwork, and these schools are also at specific location, so if you live far away you might not be able to get there without difficulty and stress. All of this puts filters on who gets to go, rather than just making space for everyone who shows interest in certain areas and puts forth effort. It also removes successful students from local schools, the proportion of academically inclined peers goes down, the proportion of bad influences goes up, and the entire school system suffers as a consequence. Ideally these programs should exist in house, expanded or contracted to fit the number of kids scoring >x% on whatever measure. 1. http://echoices.lausd.net/Magnet/MagnetGiftedCriteria http://echoices.lausd.net/Magnet/MagnetGiftedCriteria 2. https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-me-edu-magnet-test-scores-2016/ https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-me-edu-magnet-test-score...
  - mturmon 6y ago
    My kid is in one of these LAUSD magnets. It’s a public school. The gifted magnets are open to anyone who tests into a certain percentile. The test is given to everyone so it’s quite transparent. To get into the highly gifted magnet, you have to request a subsequent test, which the district administers. You have to score above the 99.5 percentile.
jrs95 6y ago
AP classes aren't really close to the same in my experience. They may technically be on par with entry level college courses but none of the content is so difficult than anyone else couldn't do it. If anything we just have low expectations and do very little to foster any critical thinking skills in most students. You could be below average in terms of natural ability and not have a problem with AP classes just by actually giving a shit.
- throw1234651234 6y ago
  My AP history teacher read us historical documents and wanted us to "take notes" by writing them down and then tested us on random parts of the document. I wish I took a lower-level history class. Such a waste of time.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  I'd argue you could do the same without even trying, either. AP classes aren't really significantly more difficult than a regular class; they just have more focus on content covered on the AP exam.

Not at that level, I have 3 kids of various ages from elementary school to college ;) There is a HUGE difference in the programs from who is selected into the program to program goals.

ummwhat 6y ago
For the sake of example, how was Soviet Science high school different from Stuyvesant/Brooklyn Tech/Bronx school of Science? (Just to name the ones I know of).
- lsh123 6y ago
  I am not very familiar with these schools, I am in CA. I think the biggest factor for me during my high school years was several hours per week of 1-1 discussions with currently active mathematicians and grad students. While formal math is really hard to read, a lot of ideas are very elegant and actually simple. It’s hard to find these ideas in a formal math text, but you can explain a lot of things in 1-1 setting while still allow student to “discover” core concepts on their own. Mathematics is not about solving 100 problems of one type ;)
  - novok 6y ago
    This is what infuriates me about college level mathematics from about 12 years ago at least. Why can't they also explain it like they do in those 1-1 sessions instead of making calculus textbooks that assume you know set theory before set theory is taught in some of the worst most obtuse writing there is. I'm glad there is khan academy now, but come on.
    - screye 6y ago
      You would love 3B1B. He teaches undergrad level math with his youtube videos in the most intuitive way I've ever seen on video.
    - zozbot234 6y ago
      The very point of 1-1 sessions is to start with an awareness of your existing knowledge background (set theory or not?) and to aim for real mastery in the most effective way. Unfortunately 1-1 sessions don't scale, while at least khan academy does.
    - lsh123 6y ago
      There are good reasons why formal texts are important but I can’t agree more that this is not a good way to teach math if there is nothing else available. But you also need to learn how to read these texts at the end because this is the way mathematicians communicate to each other ;) Re 1-1: the biggest advantage is that students can rediscover things. It’s one experience to read or listen to a proof, and it is completely different experience when you discover it yourself with small hints from the teacher.
      - novok 6y ago
        I don't think formal texts should go away, just things equivalent to those well done, plain spoken, 1-1 explanations need to be right beside them in the textbooks. They often are not. Also math tends to have a documentation problem that could learn a lot from software engineering. Single letter variables are not acceptable in most coding for a simple example.
    - lsh123 6y ago
      And another point, high school and college level math is coming from the 18th and early 19th centuries. All of it can be explained without formalization from 1920-30 and students for non-mathematical degrees will understand it much better. I can explain sets to elementary school kids in 10 minutes ;)
  - jackpirate 6y ago
    I know lots of UC math/cs profs who meet 1-1 with high school students every week. Currently, the process is pretty informal, where local high school students just knock on the doors of professors until one agrees to regular meetings. UC Riverside is in the process of opening up a high school directly on the campus grounds to make the process more formal.
- lsh123 6y ago
  And another factor, also coming from 1-1 tutoring, is that nobody waits for others. You can move ahead as fast as you can and actually you get more attention if you are ahead of class. As the result, while everyone knows the same fundamental theorems, some students have a chance to learn A LOT more.
- myegorov 6y ago
  I'm not familiar with Stuyvesant, TJHSST and the like. The best Russian schools follow the Konstantinov [1] tradition of "listki" (handouts), where each student is essentially guided to re-invent the math curriculum by solving problems. There're no textbooks or lectures. You solve problems from the handouts at your own pace and discuss them with a TA when ready (typically volunteers from among former graduates of the same school). You can get some taste of these handouts for grades 8 and above from https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdev.mccme.ru%2F~merzon%2Flistki.html https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%... [1] https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fpolit.ru%2Farticle%2F2010%2F09%2F29%2Fmatheducation%2F https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=ru&tl=en&u=htt...

gabaix 6y ago

Can you elaborate? I am interested in knowing about these programs for my son.

freepor 6y ago
1) accelerated classes, 2) magnet schools, 3) statewide magnet schools, 4) high school research programs
wallflower 6y ago
Look into Art of Problem Solving (AOPS). https://artofproblemsolving.com/ https://artofproblemsolving.com/
chris_va 6y ago
Which state are you in? Public resources differ quite a bit by state. Privately, I would look at: https://cty.jhu.edu/ https://cty.jhu.edu/
- gabaix 6y ago
  Thanks! I am in California (Bay Area)

freepor 6y ago

But they are not on the federal level, with the benefits and disadvantages of this. The benefit is that they don't get dragged into partisan politics and have their agendas changed every four years. The disadvantage is in reach and scale. In some countries they can get the top 2000 middle school math students across the country into the same campus. In the US it's more like the Top 100 students in Virginia, which is a different experience.

knzhou 6y ago

There are now, not so much 40 years ago. Even today, a lot of the STEM enrichment programs in the US have roots in the USSR. Hell, a big fraction of the physics problems I assign when tutoring these days were written by Russians in the 80s, because they're just that good.

enjo 6y ago
Anecdotal I know but I went to an entire school for “gifted” students in Texas in the 80’s.
- jessriedel 6y ago
  40 years ago is 1980, so that seems consistent with his comment. Also consistent is that Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology in Virginia, which has been ranked #1 and is generally in the top ten US high schools, was founded in 1985.
  - hncommenter13 6y ago
    Bronx Science was founded in 1938. It has graduated eight nobel prize winners, seven in physics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronx_High_School_of_Science https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronx_High_School_of_Science And, per Wikipedia, many of the faculty came from Stuyvesant, founded 1904 (which has itself had 4 nobel prize winners). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuyvesant_High_School https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuyvesant_High_School
WillPostForFood 6y ago
That's the opposite of what I've seen in California. There used to be a big focus on tracking, gifted programs and "accelerated math", but it is now perceived as inequitable. Gifted programs were cancelled, tracks eliminated, and accelerated math discouraged (you can skip a year if you study outside school, but it is discouraged). The focus is getting everyone to some minimal level, and no attention on the high performers.
- 6y ago

astura 6y ago

Only in some very limited areas. I guess private programs exist too, but your parents would have to have knowledge of them plus the time, money, and wherewithal. I am absolutely certain nothing like this was available to any kid in my schools growing up.

asdff 6y ago
I'm not sure the total scope or worth really of the program in Los Angeles, but there are requirements just to apply (1), and slots at the highest scoring schools appear pretty limited (2). It's also not an automatic thing, so a parent will have to be informed about the program and have the time to fill out the paperwork, and these schools are also at specific location, so if you live far away you might not be able to get there without difficulty and stress. All of this puts filters on who gets to go, rather than just making space for everyone who shows interest in certain areas and puts forth effort. It also removes successful students from local schools, the proportion of academically inclined peers goes down, the proportion of bad influences goes up, and the entire school system suffers as a consequence. Ideally these programs should exist in house, expanded or contracted to fit the number of kids scoring >x% on whatever measure. 1. http://echoices.lausd.net/Magnet/MagnetGiftedCriteria http://echoices.lausd.net/Magnet/MagnetGiftedCriteria 2. https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-me-edu-magnet-test-scores-2016/ https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-me-edu-magnet-test-score...
- mturmon 6y ago
  My kid is in one of these LAUSD magnets. It’s a public school. The gifted magnets are open to anyone who tests into a certain percentile. The test is given to everyone so it’s quite transparent. To get into the highly gifted magnet, you have to request a subsequent test, which the district administers. You have to score above the 99.5 percentile.

jrs95 6y ago

AP classes aren't really close to the same in my experience. They may technically be on par with entry level college courses but none of the content is so difficult than anyone else couldn't do it. If anything we just have low expectations and do very little to foster any critical thinking skills in most students. You could be below average in terms of natural ability and not have a problem with AP classes just by actually giving a shit.

throw1234651234 6y ago
My AP history teacher read us historical documents and wanted us to "take notes" by writing them down and then tested us on random parts of the document. I wish I took a lower-level history class. Such a waste of time.
saagarjha 6y ago
I'd argue you could do the same without even trying, either. AP classes aren't really significantly more difficult than a regular class; they just have more focus on content covered on the AP exam.