3 ms·

As I pointed in other comment - restrictions on life outside work are common and reasonable. Most people can't work competitors after work.

patcon 6y ago
It seems odd to consider "the commons" as a competitor... feels petty, like: "If we can't have it, then you can't even gift it to the human collective."
ac29 6y ago
> Most people can't work competitors after work. Non-compete clauses "are automatically void as a matter of law in California" [0], where Apple is based (though they have offices in other states and countries). I wonder if a ban on open source contributions would fall afoul of this law (I suspect yes, though Apple can afford pretty good lawyers). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause#California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause#California
BossingAround 6y ago
How is that fair? Apple pays me for 8h a day, why can't I work another 4h a day for Google if I choose to do so? Now, disclosing secrets, that's a different matter. If I go to Google to inform them of amazing killer project Apple wants to do within 5 years, that's called corporate espionage. No reason why I couldn't work for multiple companies though. In fact, I don't even see a reason why I should even tell these companies I work for multiple companies.
- umvi 6y ago
  > Apple pays me for 8h a day, why can't I work another 4h a day for Google if I choose to do so? You can, if you are being paid by the hour. But you probably aren't being paid by the hour, you are probably collecting an annual salary which means you might be expected to work 8-10 hours per day, not work for other companies, and other restrictions.
  - BossingAround 6y ago
    Even though my contract states yearly salary, that salary is calculated by $hourly_rate * 8 * $number_of_work_days_in_year. That's specifically stated. My contract also specifically states that I agree to work 40 hours a week. Maybe this is not the case in a typical US employment contract?
    - grumple 6y ago
      US contracts usually don't explicitly list policies like this. From my perspective, this means they can't hold you to anything, although the average person seems to think it means the company can do whatever they want. Either way, I'm pretty clear about my relationship with my employer - if you start asking me to do things, and I don't want to do them, I won't. They can decide if they want to live with that arrangement or not. Some of us outside CA do sign non-compete agreements, though, which is another matter entirely.
- jfim 6y ago
  > No reason why I couldn't work for multiple companies though. Many the employment contracts have a "no moonlighting" clause, which basically says that one won't be working for another employer during the employment period.
- nostrademons 6y ago
  > Apple pays me for 8h a day, why can't I work another 4h a day for Google if I choose to do so? I've heard of someone that did this. Held two full-time jobs at different software companies. It wasn't Apple and Google, IIRC it was something like Oracle and Nvidia or Oracle and Salesforce. He was fired from both when they found out and presumably blacklisted from being rehired, but other than that there weren't repercussions. It's not worth it to sue an individual engineer, and for many of the clauses in your employment agreement, their remedy is limited to firing you. He did it for a few years, too, and banked up a bunch of money doing so. One thing that surprises a lot of people who were raised to follow the rules: you have a lot of freedom if you're willing to deal with the consequences. Some people are afraid to question their boss because they're worried about losing their job; others will steal all of their employers' self-driving car plans for $680M, risking $180M in fines and possible jail time in the process. You get to decide where on the risk/reward continuum you want to sit.
- zaphirplane 6y ago
  Chairman of google did that for a while

patcon 6y ago

It seems odd to consider "the commons" as a competitor... feels petty, like: "If we can't have it, then you can't even gift it to the human collective."

ac29 6y ago

> Most people can't work competitors after work. Non-compete clauses "are automatically void as a matter of law in California" [0], where Apple is based (though they have offices in other states and countries). I wonder if a ban on open source contributions would fall afoul of this law (I suspect yes, though Apple can afford pretty good lawyers). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause#California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause#California

BossingAround 6y ago

How is that fair? Apple pays me for 8h a day, why can't I work another 4h a day for Google if I choose to do so? Now, disclosing secrets, that's a different matter. If I go to Google to inform them of amazing killer project Apple wants to do within 5 years, that's called corporate espionage. No reason why I couldn't work for multiple companies though. In fact, I don't even see a reason why I should even tell these companies I work for multiple companies.

umvi 6y ago
> Apple pays me for 8h a day, why can't I work another 4h a day for Google if I choose to do so? You can, if you are being paid by the hour. But you probably aren't being paid by the hour, you are probably collecting an annual salary which means you might be expected to work 8-10 hours per day, not work for other companies, and other restrictions.
- BossingAround 6y ago
  Even though my contract states yearly salary, that salary is calculated by $hourly_rate * 8 * $number_of_work_days_in_year. That's specifically stated. My contract also specifically states that I agree to work 40 hours a week. Maybe this is not the case in a typical US employment contract?
  - grumple 6y ago
    US contracts usually don't explicitly list policies like this. From my perspective, this means they can't hold you to anything, although the average person seems to think it means the company can do whatever they want. Either way, I'm pretty clear about my relationship with my employer - if you start asking me to do things, and I don't want to do them, I won't. They can decide if they want to live with that arrangement or not. Some of us outside CA do sign non-compete agreements, though, which is another matter entirely.
jfim 6y ago
> No reason why I couldn't work for multiple companies though. Many the employment contracts have a "no moonlighting" clause, which basically says that one won't be working for another employer during the employment period.
nostrademons 6y ago
> Apple pays me for 8h a day, why can't I work another 4h a day for Google if I choose to do so? I've heard of someone that did this. Held two full-time jobs at different software companies. It wasn't Apple and Google, IIRC it was something like Oracle and Nvidia or Oracle and Salesforce. He was fired from both when they found out and presumably blacklisted from being rehired, but other than that there weren't repercussions. It's not worth it to sue an individual engineer, and for many of the clauses in your employment agreement, their remedy is limited to firing you. He did it for a few years, too, and banked up a bunch of money doing so. One thing that surprises a lot of people who were raised to follow the rules: you have a lot of freedom if you're willing to deal with the consequences. Some people are afraid to question their boss because they're worried about losing their job; others will steal all of their employers' self-driving car plans for $680M, risking $180M in fines and possible jail time in the process. You get to decide where on the risk/reward continuum you want to sit.
zaphirplane 6y ago
Chairman of google did that for a while