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> It's also extremely addictive to engineers. Quite the understatement. Pretty much every engineer that I've introduced to the game has played for at least 40

by jfim 7y ago

> It's also extremely addictive to engineers. Quite the understatement. Pretty much every engineer that I've introduced to the game has played for at least 40 hours.

TaylorAlexander 7y ago
Interesting. I used to play video games but now I mostly 3D print stuff and design robots for fun. I don’t think video games are a bad use of time generally, but I feel so good about doing actual engineering for fun that I’m always a little surprised with games that are supposed to be fun for engineer types. I kind of wonder why actually doing engineering for fun isn’t more popular?
- frenchie14 7y ago
  I would claim that playing Factorio constitutes as doing engineering for fun
  - TaylorAlexander 7y ago
    Well when I do engineering for fun I’m learning skills that directly apply to my jobs. So I gain experience with PCB design, CAD and 3D printing, or software. Perhaps Factorio flexes general cognitive skills like problem solving and algorithmic thinking, but it’s not going to help you get better at learning KiCAD for example.
- jfim 7y ago
  Certain game types basically are puzzles that are similar to the kinds of puzzles one would encounter during engineering things. Factorio is one of them, but other puzzle games such as topological ones (Spacechem, Opus Magnum, Infinifactory, Molek-syntez), programming (Shenzhen IO, TIS-500, Human Resource Machine, Silicon Zeroes) or logic ones (Baba is you) kind of scratch similar itches. As for doing engineering for fun, some of us are stuck doing rather boring tasks at the office, and the idea of having a game that one can just put away seems less daunting than having a code/hardware project that could potentially sit uncompleted. Designing robots definitely is fun, although it requires a fair bit of working space and tools.
  - TaylorAlexander 7y ago
    Well I guess the idea behind engineering at home for fun is that it doesn’t have to be boring tasks. And I tend to work on completely unnecessary things such that there’s no time pressure. That makes it a lot more fun and rewarding than working at the office. Like I recently designed a pair of headphones from scratch. They sound better than any of my other headphones which are all a bit cheap. It totally didn’t need to be done so I could put it away whenever. But it was lots of fun to dig in to. That feels more rewarding to me than a task where all of my progress is virtual. I should say I’m not trying to criticize others who play games, I’m just curious about it. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
    - jfim 7y ago
      That's pretty cool with regards to the headphones. Do you have a link to your project? I agree that it's really enjoyable to build physical things. I have one 3D part that I've been meaning to print for a while, but without a 3D printer at home it's a bit trickier to get it done. I wish I had a home workshop, but Silicon Valley prices make that a rather expensive proposition. There's no more TechShop either. :-(
      - nlfwhulsdhouv 7y ago
        FWIW, I have a fairly small 1 bedroom SV apartment I share with my girlfriend and I still keep up a good number of physical projects. The 3D printer sits in an enclosure in the living room :). Obviously I wish I had access to a proper shop, but I still get a fair bit of enjoyment out of it.
    - badpun 7y ago
      (I know nearly nothing about audio equipment). Weren't you afraid that you'll somehow botch the headphones and they'll play an excessively loud sound, which will permanently damage your hearing or give you tinnitus? Or can that risk be ruled out somehow?
      - TaylorAlexander 7y ago
- robocat 7y ago
  Engineering as a job often requires a lot of grinding to get an outcome, even the “easy” engineering (?) disciplines like embedded software work in my experience. Your “engineering for fun” is perhaps not what most engineers do day to day. And certainly our jobs and workplaces generally are not explicitly designed to be enjoyable with satisfying outcomes.
  - TaylorAlexander 7y ago
    Well yes a lot of workplace engineering is drudgery. That’s why I love the freedom I have with projects at home. There’s usually no time pressure, and I can work on what I enjoy. I learn constantly and develop new skills. It’s super fun!
- js8 7y ago
  I think there is just too many options how to build things in real life so it can be overwhelming. In video game, the selection of tools is intentionally limited so it isn't so daunting. Perhaps there should be a wiki or something just about all the different skills a human can have. And each skill would have some description how to get started ("first couple levels") and links to other skills. The links would describe that if you enjoy skill A, here's why you might also enjoy learning related skill B for this and that reason. So you could choose in what direction you want to continue the learning.
  - TaylorAlexander 7y ago
    Yes, the game is a tailored experience you can pick up and quickly become engaged in. I suppose engineering for fun takes more self direction. Your idea for a wiki sounds interesting, though there’s enthusiast communities on reddit and elsewhere that may already have answered “how to get started” questions. So in a way, the resource you mention exists as data on the internet. For much of what you want to learn, you’ll find out how to get started with some time at the search terminal.
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  I had the impression of working while playing Space Chem, a really good puzzle game with awesome music. I think the developer made another game but haven't tried that yet. In the game you can compare your results with others and in most cases you have to decide between optimizing for simplicity or speed. Seriously, if I just had a sliver of the ambition I had while playing this game for other projects...
- tomcam 7y ago
  Parent is doing some very interesting work. Check out his profile.
- nlfwhulsdhouv 7y ago
  Few reasons: - Variety. I'm an EE at work and a lot of my personal projects are EE-related because that's what I'm good at. Sometimes I want a break from that. Alternatively I'll work on more mechanical projects, but video games are often a fun change of pace. - It's nice to work in a space with no real consequences. When I'm working on physical projects there is always a bit of a sense of cost and waste. With 3D printing and similar it's a smaller issue, but it's nice to play around in a game where you can continuously optimize without really 'wasting' anything. - Access to equipment. I'll play factorio on planes, or on work trips where I don't have access to my 3D printer or a computer set up for CAD or PCB design. Even if I can afford it, I don't have that much space. Sometimes working on a project means cleaning up something else or finishing a different project I'm no longer excited about. It just adds a barrier to entry that is sometimes difficult to overcome if you're not feeling particularly motivated. That being said, I did quit my last factorio world when I opened up a spreadsheet before thinking if I was going to go to those lengths for optimization I may as well do something 'real'. Doing engineering for fun is fairly popular, it's just hard, intellectually draining, and (often) expensive, so people look for other related things to do.
- barbs 7y ago
  Relevant Vice article: Why Do We Play Video Games That Feel Like Work? (2015) https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/4x38aq/why-do-we-play-video-games-that-simulate-work https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/4x38aq/why-do-we-play-vid...
mosiuerbarso 7y ago
I'm a former engineer. Toolmaker to be precise. I just could not get into this game no matter how long I tried. I love making stuff as a hobby, and reading all the good reviews this game had it seemed like a great way to kill a few spare hours. But I just couldn't gell with the game.It just seemed like I was back at work but now not getting paid for my time. For me, Rimworld is where it's at.
- debaserab2 7y ago
  I feel the exact same way. It's interesting that you mention Rimworld - I dived into Rimworld when I first got it and came to appreciate the way little things add up in that game and make the simulation more interesting (be it positive or negative). The complicated UI is slowly unraveled and becomes intuitive as you learn the game because there are simple feedback mechanisms for actions that affect your colonists. Everyone tells me I'd love factorio. Every time I load up the intro tutorial I have the intention of finally diving in and just.... nothing. I can't get into it. I don't feel an incentive to learn the building and crafting UI's. It just feels like work. I'm not even sure why I'm building the things I'm building, or what the aim of the game is. Maybe rimworld sucks me in because I can immediately empathize with the plight of the survivor, whereas factorio seems to be all about building efficient machines for the sake of building efficient machines.
  - Faark 7y ago
    Yes, Rimworld is easier to get into for many. "Survive" is a way more obvious and natural goal. But once I got more and more into the details, Rimworld was the one frustrating me. I probably just despise this kind of "Storyteller" aka Event choosen by Wealth & RNG. This ruined the fun for me and is probably the reason I played Factorio easily 10 times as long as Rimworld. The closest Factory has to that is the pollution mechanic, but that doesn't feel nearly as contrived.
    - slothtrop 7y ago
      I believe difficulty can be adjusted right? If you're not much for unforeseen attacks.

by jfim 7y ago

> It's also extremely addictive to engineers. Quite the understatement. Pretty much every engineer that I've introduced to the game has played for at least 40 hours.

TaylorAlexander 7y ago

Interesting. I used to play video games but now I mostly 3D print stuff and design robots for fun. I don’t think video games are a bad use of time generally, but I feel so good about doing actual engineering for fun that I’m always a little surprised with games that are supposed to be fun for engineer types. I kind of wonder why actually doing engineering for fun isn’t more popular?

frenchie14 7y ago
I would claim that playing Factorio constitutes as doing engineering for fun
- TaylorAlexander 7y ago
  Well when I do engineering for fun I’m learning skills that directly apply to my jobs. So I gain experience with PCB design, CAD and 3D printing, or software. Perhaps Factorio flexes general cognitive skills like problem solving and algorithmic thinking, but it’s not going to help you get better at learning KiCAD for example.
jfim 7y ago
Certain game types basically are puzzles that are similar to the kinds of puzzles one would encounter during engineering things. Factorio is one of them, but other puzzle games such as topological ones (Spacechem, Opus Magnum, Infinifactory, Molek-syntez), programming (Shenzhen IO, TIS-500, Human Resource Machine, Silicon Zeroes) or logic ones (Baba is you) kind of scratch similar itches. As for doing engineering for fun, some of us are stuck doing rather boring tasks at the office, and the idea of having a game that one can just put away seems less daunting than having a code/hardware project that could potentially sit uncompleted. Designing robots definitely is fun, although it requires a fair bit of working space and tools.
- TaylorAlexander 7y ago
  Well I guess the idea behind engineering at home for fun is that it doesn’t have to be boring tasks. And I tend to work on completely unnecessary things such that there’s no time pressure. That makes it a lot more fun and rewarding than working at the office. Like I recently designed a pair of headphones from scratch. They sound better than any of my other headphones which are all a bit cheap. It totally didn’t need to be done so I could put it away whenever. But it was lots of fun to dig in to. That feels more rewarding to me than a task where all of my progress is virtual. I should say I’m not trying to criticize others who play games, I’m just curious about it. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
  - jfim 7y ago
    That's pretty cool with regards to the headphones. Do you have a link to your project? I agree that it's really enjoyable to build physical things. I have one 3D part that I've been meaning to print for a while, but without a 3D printer at home it's a bit trickier to get it done. I wish I had a home workshop, but Silicon Valley prices make that a rather expensive proposition. There's no more TechShop either. :-(
    - nlfwhulsdhouv 7y ago
      FWIW, I have a fairly small 1 bedroom SV apartment I share with my girlfriend and I still keep up a good number of physical projects. The 3D printer sits in an enclosure in the living room :). Obviously I wish I had access to a proper shop, but I still get a fair bit of enjoyment out of it.
  - badpun 7y ago
    (I know nearly nothing about audio equipment). Weren't you afraid that you'll somehow botch the headphones and they'll play an excessively loud sound, which will permanently damage your hearing or give you tinnitus? Or can that risk be ruled out somehow?
    - TaylorAlexander 7y ago
robocat 7y ago
Engineering as a job often requires a lot of grinding to get an outcome, even the “easy” engineering (?) disciplines like embedded software work in my experience. Your “engineering for fun” is perhaps not what most engineers do day to day. And certainly our jobs and workplaces generally are not explicitly designed to be enjoyable with satisfying outcomes.
- TaylorAlexander 7y ago
  Well yes a lot of workplace engineering is drudgery. That’s why I love the freedom I have with projects at home. There’s usually no time pressure, and I can work on what I enjoy. I learn constantly and develop new skills. It’s super fun!
js8 7y ago
I think there is just too many options how to build things in real life so it can be overwhelming. In video game, the selection of tools is intentionally limited so it isn't so daunting. Perhaps there should be a wiki or something just about all the different skills a human can have. And each skill would have some description how to get started ("first couple levels") and links to other skills. The links would describe that if you enjoy skill A, here's why you might also enjoy learning related skill B for this and that reason. So you could choose in what direction you want to continue the learning.
- TaylorAlexander 7y ago
  Yes, the game is a tailored experience you can pick up and quickly become engaged in. I suppose engineering for fun takes more self direction. Your idea for a wiki sounds interesting, though there’s enthusiast communities on reddit and elsewhere that may already have answered “how to get started” questions. So in a way, the resource you mention exists as data on the internet. For much of what you want to learn, you’ll find out how to get started with some time at the search terminal.
raxxorrax 7y ago
I had the impression of working while playing Space Chem, a really good puzzle game with awesome music. I think the developer made another game but haven't tried that yet. In the game you can compare your results with others and in most cases you have to decide between optimizing for simplicity or speed. Seriously, if I just had a sliver of the ambition I had while playing this game for other projects...
tomcam 7y ago
Parent is doing some very interesting work. Check out his profile.
nlfwhulsdhouv 7y ago
Few reasons: - Variety. I'm an EE at work and a lot of my personal projects are EE-related because that's what I'm good at. Sometimes I want a break from that. Alternatively I'll work on more mechanical projects, but video games are often a fun change of pace. - It's nice to work in a space with no real consequences. When I'm working on physical projects there is always a bit of a sense of cost and waste. With 3D printing and similar it's a smaller issue, but it's nice to play around in a game where you can continuously optimize without really 'wasting' anything. - Access to equipment. I'll play factorio on planes, or on work trips where I don't have access to my 3D printer or a computer set up for CAD or PCB design. Even if I can afford it, I don't have that much space. Sometimes working on a project means cleaning up something else or finishing a different project I'm no longer excited about. It just adds a barrier to entry that is sometimes difficult to overcome if you're not feeling particularly motivated. That being said, I did quit my last factorio world when I opened up a spreadsheet before thinking if I was going to go to those lengths for optimization I may as well do something 'real'. Doing engineering for fun is fairly popular, it's just hard, intellectually draining, and (often) expensive, so people look for other related things to do.
barbs 7y ago
Relevant Vice article: Why Do We Play Video Games That Feel Like Work? (2015) https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/4x38aq/why-do-we-play-video-games-that-simulate-work https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/4x38aq/why-do-we-play-vid...

mosiuerbarso 7y ago

I'm a former engineer. Toolmaker to be precise. I just could not get into this game no matter how long I tried. I love making stuff as a hobby, and reading all the good reviews this game had it seemed like a great way to kill a few spare hours. But I just couldn't gell with the game.It just seemed like I was back at work but now not getting paid for my time. For me, Rimworld is where it's at.

debaserab2 7y ago
I feel the exact same way. It's interesting that you mention Rimworld - I dived into Rimworld when I first got it and came to appreciate the way little things add up in that game and make the simulation more interesting (be it positive or negative). The complicated UI is slowly unraveled and becomes intuitive as you learn the game because there are simple feedback mechanisms for actions that affect your colonists. Everyone tells me I'd love factorio. Every time I load up the intro tutorial I have the intention of finally diving in and just.... nothing. I can't get into it. I don't feel an incentive to learn the building and crafting UI's. It just feels like work. I'm not even sure why I'm building the things I'm building, or what the aim of the game is. Maybe rimworld sucks me in because I can immediately empathize with the plight of the survivor, whereas factorio seems to be all about building efficient machines for the sake of building efficient machines.
- Faark 7y ago
  Yes, Rimworld is easier to get into for many. "Survive" is a way more obvious and natural goal. But once I got more and more into the details, Rimworld was the one frustrating me. I probably just despise this kind of "Storyteller" aka Event choosen by Wealth & RNG. This ruined the fun for me and is probably the reason I played Factorio easily 10 times as long as Rimworld. The closest Factory has to that is the pollution mechanic, but that doesn't feel nearly as contrived.
  - slothtrop 7y ago
    I believe difficulty can be adjusted right? If you're not much for unforeseen attacks.