6 ms·

And what about China's incompetent response?

monkeydreams 6y ago
That was mentioned in the article - it was described as disastrous, at least initially. Now? China has a firmer grasp on the problem of COVID-19 and are battling it on many fronts, including the geopolitical. Western governments (edit:those listed in the article such as the US and European powers), on the other hand, have been beset by decades of political parties attacking the legitimacy and foundations of the political system in order to score points against their rivals. This has led to a widespread unease and distrust among their voters, and a subsequent weakening of their governmental controls and regulations. I don't agree with all the points raised in this piece, and I suspect that this weakness of the West is part of a longer cycle. But, for now, there is some points raised in this article that we should ponder.
- rumanator 6y ago
  > China has a firmer grasp on the problem of COVID-19 Between covering up the fact that their death rate was a few orders of magnitude higher and deciding to intentionally leaving out infected but asymptomatic cases from their infection statistics while boasting that new cases occurred due to infected foreigners entering the country , it's patently obvious that the Chinese regime does not and never had a good grasp on the problem. And if that does not convince you, let's not forget that the Chinese regime's talking heads tried to pin the blame of their outbreak on Italy.
  - vosper 6y ago
    > it's patently obvious that the Chinese regime does not and never had a good grasp on the problem. I think they had a good grasp on the problem, but the problem to them was (as it always is for China’s leadership) firstly about maintaining control, and at best secondarily about dealing with Covid.
    - rumanator 6y ago
      Becoming aware of the true extent of their mess and having a good grasp on the problem are two entirely different things. Moreover, the only reason why China's covid19 outbreak threatened the Chinese regime's control over the population is because the Chinese regime failed to address the problem in a timely manner after intentionally turning a blind eye to the problem, and afterwards attacking it as a political threat instead of a public health crisis.
    - furyg3 6y ago
      Let’s also not forget that it began there in the first place, and there is a serious probability that this particular disease could have been completely avoided in humans. People have been saying, for years, that the ‘wet markets’ of exotic animals are breeding grounds for inter-species diseases. The Chinese government did not listen to these complaints for many reasons, including the fact that ‘medicinal remedies’ made from exotic animals are a status symbol for upper-class Chinese.
- userulluipeste 6y ago
  "This has led to a widespread unease and distrust among their voters, and a subsequent weakening of their governmental controls and regulations." Yet, somehow, living in one of such "western" governed places, I don't feel that there is less governmental control than before. To give you two examples, I remember a time when digital fingerprinting of civilians was mandated only in a criminal context, but now one has to be fingerprinted just to get an ID (passport). Not long ago one could make easy anonymous calls (think of whistleblowing or whatnot). Not anymore, as the public phones aren't around any more and since not so long ago getting a cell phone number requires revealing one's identity. These may be anecdotal, but still.
galaxyLogic 6y ago
Right let us not forget that China tried to hide it all initially, attacking the whistle-blower. Such a thing as jailing whistle-blower happens more easily in autocracies than in democracies, one could assume. https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/03/19/818295972/chinese-authorities-admit-improper-response-to-coronavirus-whistleblower https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/0...
- thawaway1837 6y ago
  The US, today, has a whole horde of influential people (including the President, probably) who are attacking Dr Fauci. At a time where the virus and its lethality is undeniable, and Fauci isn’t even just a random doctor, but probably one of the most decorated doctor in the past few decades.
  - musicale 6y ago
    It was a great shame when Dr. Fauci was imprisoned and forced to read a confession on Fox News, apologizing for disturbing the public order by correcting Trump.
  - yostrovs 6y ago
    Fauci has been a bureaucrat longer than most people on HN have been alive. And he's been in charge of a department of the US government that hasn't been responsible for anything before the current event. Perhaps he's being lionized a bit much.
    - excalibur 6y ago
      In the current administration, even a basic level of competence is remarkable and celebrated.
  - 101404 6y ago
    Discussing a topic controversially is just that, a discussion. When the Chinese government "attacks" somebody, that person disappears and often dies. Just wanting to remind people of the difference.
squiggleblaz 6y ago
Mainland China lost a five thousand people and got less than 90 thousand infected without warning. Germany still receives praise for a "competent" response with so far the same number of dead and they're so far at more than 140 thousand infected. And that's one of the most praised responses in the West! China responded badly and recovered. West is still in an arrogant denial.
- sebwi 6y ago
  So, you are confident that the numbers published by the Chinese government are accurate?
  - Zenbit_UX 6y ago
    FYI China's numbers were fixed a few days ago, they were off but not by that much from the new total.
    - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      China's numbers were fixed in an incredibly suspicious way - their Wuhan death toll increased by exactly 50%. I don't think it's reasonable to believe the new numbers any more than the old ones.
      - sebwi 6y ago
        Yeah, that's what I'm thinking as well. I'm always amazed how careless people deal with statistics, particularly if these very statistics have poltical value to someone. While there are certainly naive people out there, most of the times it just seems like intentional misunderstanding to push a certain narrative.
thawaway1837 6y ago
China’s incompetent response was at worse as bad as, say, the US, UK or the EU’s incompetent response at least a few months later when the scale and dangers of this virus were far more evident. Heck, in the US the President is still engaging in the kind of denialism and lies that we are calling China incompetent for because they engaged in it in the very beginning of the crisis, where the impact was not clear at all.

That was mentioned in the article - it was described as disastrous, at least initially. Now? China has a firmer grasp on the problem of COVID-19 and are battling it on many fronts, including the geopolitical. Western governments (edit:those listed in the article such as the US and European powers), on the other hand, have been beset by decades of political parties attacking the legitimacy and foundations of the political system in order to score points against their rivals. This has led to a widespread unease and distrust among their voters, and a subsequent weakening of their governmental controls and regulations. I don't agree with all the points raised in this piece, and I suspect that this weakness of the West is part of a longer cycle. But, for now, there is some points raised in this article that we should ponder.

rumanator 6y ago
> China has a firmer grasp on the problem of COVID-19 Between covering up the fact that their death rate was a few orders of magnitude higher and deciding to intentionally leaving out infected but asymptomatic cases from their infection statistics while boasting that new cases occurred due to infected foreigners entering the country , it's patently obvious that the Chinese regime does not and never had a good grasp on the problem. And if that does not convince you, let's not forget that the Chinese regime's talking heads tried to pin the blame of their outbreak on Italy.
- vosper 6y ago
  > it's patently obvious that the Chinese regime does not and never had a good grasp on the problem. I think they had a good grasp on the problem, but the problem to them was (as it always is for China’s leadership) firstly about maintaining control, and at best secondarily about dealing with Covid.
  - rumanator 6y ago
    Becoming aware of the true extent of their mess and having a good grasp on the problem are two entirely different things. Moreover, the only reason why China's covid19 outbreak threatened the Chinese regime's control over the population is because the Chinese regime failed to address the problem in a timely manner after intentionally turning a blind eye to the problem, and afterwards attacking it as a political threat instead of a public health crisis.
  - furyg3 6y ago
    Let’s also not forget that it began there in the first place, and there is a serious probability that this particular disease could have been completely avoided in humans. People have been saying, for years, that the ‘wet markets’ of exotic animals are breeding grounds for inter-species diseases. The Chinese government did not listen to these complaints for many reasons, including the fact that ‘medicinal remedies’ made from exotic animals are a status symbol for upper-class Chinese.
userulluipeste 6y ago
"This has led to a widespread unease and distrust among their voters, and a subsequent weakening of their governmental controls and regulations." Yet, somehow, living in one of such "western" governed places, I don't feel that there is less governmental control than before. To give you two examples, I remember a time when digital fingerprinting of civilians was mandated only in a criminal context, but now one has to be fingerprinted just to get an ID (passport). Not long ago one could make easy anonymous calls (think of whistleblowing or whatnot). Not anymore, as the public phones aren't around any more and since not so long ago getting a cell phone number requires revealing one's identity. These may be anecdotal, but still.

galaxyLogic 6y ago

Right let us not forget that China tried to hide it all initially, attacking the whistle-blower. Such a thing as jailing whistle-blower happens more easily in autocracies than in democracies, one could assume. https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/03/19/818295972/chinese-authorities-admit-improper-response-to-coronavirus-whistleblower https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/0...

thawaway1837 6y ago
The US, today, has a whole horde of influential people (including the President, probably) who are attacking Dr Fauci. At a time where the virus and its lethality is undeniable, and Fauci isn’t even just a random doctor, but probably one of the most decorated doctor in the past few decades.
- musicale 6y ago
  It was a great shame when Dr. Fauci was imprisoned and forced to read a confession on Fox News, apologizing for disturbing the public order by correcting Trump.
- yostrovs 6y ago
  Fauci has been a bureaucrat longer than most people on HN have been alive. And he's been in charge of a department of the US government that hasn't been responsible for anything before the current event. Perhaps he's being lionized a bit much.
  - excalibur 6y ago
    In the current administration, even a basic level of competence is remarkable and celebrated.
- 101404 6y ago
  Discussing a topic controversially is just that, a discussion. When the Chinese government "attacks" somebody, that person disappears and often dies. Just wanting to remind people of the difference.

squiggleblaz 6y ago

Mainland China lost a five thousand people and got less than 90 thousand infected without warning. Germany still receives praise for a "competent" response with so far the same number of dead and they're so far at more than 140 thousand infected. And that's one of the most praised responses in the West! China responded badly and recovered. West is still in an arrogant denial.

sebwi 6y ago
So, you are confident that the numbers published by the Chinese government are accurate?
- Zenbit_UX 6y ago
  FYI China's numbers were fixed a few days ago, they were off but not by that much from the new total.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    China's numbers were fixed in an incredibly suspicious way - their Wuhan death toll increased by exactly 50%. I don't think it's reasonable to believe the new numbers any more than the old ones.
    - sebwi 6y ago
      Yeah, that's what I'm thinking as well. I'm always amazed how careless people deal with statistics, particularly if these very statistics have poltical value to someone. While there are certainly naive people out there, most of the times it just seems like intentional misunderstanding to push a certain narrative.

thawaway1837 6y ago

China’s incompetent response was at worse as bad as, say, the US, UK or the EU’s incompetent response at least a few months later when the scale and dangers of this virus were far more evident. Heck, in the US the President is still engaging in the kind of denialism and lies that we are calling China incompetent for because they engaged in it in the very beginning of the crisis, where the impact was not clear at all.