10 ms·

I am very concerned about the economic impact this will have and I am also taking this seriously and observing social distancing. What would be a reason to pro

I am very concerned about the economic impact this will have and I am also taking this seriously and observing social distancing. What would be a reason to protest lockdowns?

sky_rw 7y ago
The fact that protesting is illegal is reason enough in the USA to protest. If the government can take away fundamental rights via executive fiat then we never had rights in the first place, we had permissions. For many it's a matter of principle. For others who are literally having to stand in food lines for the first time ever and are unable to pay rent or write paychecks, it's a matter of survival.
- oldsklgdfth 7y ago
  If suspending certain rights in emergencies is a reason to protest we need to change the government. If we can't take care of each other at a time of emergency shame on us. I mean us the people not the government.
- xxpor 7y ago
  Protesting isn't illegal if you follow social distancing guidelines. I can't imagine courts would have an issue with that under a time, manner and place restriction framework.
  - orblivion 7y ago
    Infamous tweet from Raleigh PD indicates how police feel about it: https://twitter.com/raleighpolice/status/1250111779574894594 https://twitter.com/raleighpolice/status/1250111779574894594 (No qualifications about distancing)
    - xxpor 7y ago
      And they got ratio'd to death, as they should have. Cops don't have law degrees (and well to be fair, neither do I).
    - anigbrowl 7y ago
      One tweet from one police department isn't generalizable across the board.
- Pils 7y ago
  "If the government can take away fundamental rights via executive fiat then we never had rights in the first place, we had permissions" I mean, isn't that the definition of rights? If the government can take away fundamental rights via executive power, then it is called having a penal system. We all live in a state of exception, freedom is always conditioned, during a pandemic or otherwise. There is no principled libertarian stance that is violated now but not status quo ante.
rabuse 7y ago
People are really protesting the government with this, as they haven't provided a great solution to basically turning off capitalism for most businesses/employees. Most people I know who filed unemployment weeks ago, still haven't seen a single dime, and bills are due.
sneak 7y ago
Human rights violations on free movement and association. Home confinement must be voluntary, or it is a major fundamental infringement upon basic human rights. I assume you wouldn’t tolerate the government shutting down or mass censoring the media/publishing during an emergency? Everyone should be staying home. No one should be using force to ensure that.
- FireBeyond 7y ago
  > Home confinement must be voluntary No-one is "confined". Even in Washington state, which has some of the more strict rules in place, says "You are perfectly allowed to go outside, and do the things you need to do, but practice common sense and public health best practices when you do". > No one should be using force to ensure that. Where has force been applied to keep people in their homes?
  - sneak 7y ago
    http://abc3340.com/news/nation-world/police-alabama-woman-arrested-for-holding-party-during-covid-19-shelter-in-place-order http://abc3340.com/news/nation-world/police-alabama-woman-ar... https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/490445-louisiana-pastor-charged-with-misdemeanor-for-holding-services https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/490445-lou... These are not isolated incidents. To be clear, I don’t agree with their actions. I also don’t agree that what they were doing should be illegal.
    - FireBeyond 7y ago
      Being cited for coordinating and organizing specifically prohibited (sure, we can debate the merits of this) public gatherings in confined spaces is still several steps removed from "confined in home by force".
    - anigbrowl 7y ago
      Your counter-example for people disputing your claim about confinement is a woman who organized a party. This doesn't help your argument at all.
orblivion 7y ago
I was on the fence about attending a protest an hour away. Ended up not going. But I would absolutely be wearing a mask, at a distance from everybody else (look at what they did in Tel Aviv), and in the camp of "take this seriously, stay at home when you can (not ironic, I consider the protest important), take personal responsibility to save lives AND make room for people who have to work to maintain their livelihood, wear a mask and otherwise maximize safety when you do return to work". (Hard to fit that all on a sign, of course.) Reasons would be: 1) Don't you dare tell me protests are "non-essential" activities (see Raleigh PD) 2) Let people decide if they want to work. People are already quite cautious at this point. (I say this with some hesitation, which is one part of why I didn't go) There are important issues of health, economy, and government power grab. Most people on all sides of the issue seem to pick only one or two.
- oldsklgdfth 7y ago
  Is it safe to open up restaurants, bars, retails with social distancing and masks? Also, I'm skeptical of whether the US has the appropriate culture to handle such a thing.
  - orblivion 7y ago
    Restaurants could probably open with spread out tables, open windows, etc. Bars maybe not, fair enough. But in most states I think both already are somewhat open with take out.
casefields 7y ago
Because the cure maybe worse using draconian lockdowns instead of just social distancing like Sweden: COVID-19 Is Likely to Lead to an Increase in Suicides: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/covid-19-is-likely-to-lead-to-an-increase-in-suicides/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/covid-19-i... The Untold Toll — The Pandemic’s Effects on Patients without Covid-19: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMms2009984 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMms2009984 Even if we open back up, we should still keep the elderly/at-risk populations as quarantined as possible. Practice social distancing. Not hold large festivals/gatherings/etc until we get a vaccine or achieve herd immunity.
- sneak 7y ago
  There are no draconian lockdowns, as yet, in the US, not are any currently planned.
  - Kiro 7y ago
    Compared to Sweden they are certainly draconian.
    - watwut 7y ago
      Sweden argues that they have disciplined populace that does not socialize anyway. That they generally keep away from each other and follow rules without being forced to. I dont know whether it is true statistically, nor whether it will end up being food from them, but that is what people from Sweden argue.
    - vkou 7y ago
      Sweden is on an exponential growth curve, has five-to-ten times the deaths of its neighbours, is severely under-testing, and is instituting more and more aspects of a lockdown.
      - Kiro 7y ago
        It's not exponential any more. Just 40 new coronavirus deaths yesterday and the curve has been declining for two weeks (from a top of over 100). > and is instituting more and more aspects of a lockdown Like what? There haven't been any new restrictions for weeks.
skocznymroczny 7y ago
Lockdowns are very convenient for governments because they block protests. Now is the perfect time to pass all the inconvenient laws, because even if people march out on the streets, you can easily arrest them. And other, non-protesting part of the country will cheer you for it. At least until the other part wants to protest too and realizes it affects them as well.
- throwaway0a5e 7y ago
  > Now is the perfect time to pass all the inconvenient laws, because even if people march out on the streets, you can easily arrest them. And other, non-protesting part of the country will cheer you for it. At least until the other part wants to protest too and realizes it affects them as well. The governor of VA did exactly that. He got hit with a massive protest back in January(?) when it looked like he was gonna sign some gun related legislation. He signed a nearly identical bill recently while everyone was busy talking about Covid. Regardless of how you feel about the legislation I think it's a slimy move. I assume other state governors are doing the same things and just haven't heard about them yet.

I am very concerned about the economic impact this will have and I am also taking this seriously and observing social distancing. What would be a reason to protest lockdowns?

sky_rw 7y ago

The fact that protesting is illegal is reason enough in the USA to protest. If the government can take away fundamental rights via executive fiat then we never had rights in the first place, we had permissions. For many it's a matter of principle. For others who are literally having to stand in food lines for the first time ever and are unable to pay rent or write paychecks, it's a matter of survival.

oldsklgdfth 7y ago
If suspending certain rights in emergencies is a reason to protest we need to change the government. If we can't take care of each other at a time of emergency shame on us. I mean us the people not the government.
xxpor 7y ago
Protesting isn't illegal if you follow social distancing guidelines. I can't imagine courts would have an issue with that under a time, manner and place restriction framework.
- orblivion 7y ago
  Infamous tweet from Raleigh PD indicates how police feel about it: https://twitter.com/raleighpolice/status/1250111779574894594 https://twitter.com/raleighpolice/status/1250111779574894594 (No qualifications about distancing)
  - xxpor 7y ago
    And they got ratio'd to death, as they should have. Cops don't have law degrees (and well to be fair, neither do I).
  - anigbrowl 7y ago
    One tweet from one police department isn't generalizable across the board.
Pils 7y ago
"If the government can take away fundamental rights via executive fiat then we never had rights in the first place, we had permissions" I mean, isn't that the definition of rights? If the government can take away fundamental rights via executive power, then it is called having a penal system. We all live in a state of exception, freedom is always conditioned, during a pandemic or otherwise. There is no principled libertarian stance that is violated now but not status quo ante.

rabuse 7y ago

People are really protesting the government with this, as they haven't provided a great solution to basically turning off capitalism for most businesses/employees. Most people I know who filed unemployment weeks ago, still haven't seen a single dime, and bills are due.

sneak 7y ago

Human rights violations on free movement and association. Home confinement must be voluntary, or it is a major fundamental infringement upon basic human rights. I assume you wouldn’t tolerate the government shutting down or mass censoring the media/publishing during an emergency? Everyone should be staying home. No one should be using force to ensure that.

FireBeyond 7y ago
> Home confinement must be voluntary No-one is "confined". Even in Washington state, which has some of the more strict rules in place, says "You are perfectly allowed to go outside, and do the things you need to do, but practice common sense and public health best practices when you do". > No one should be using force to ensure that. Where has force been applied to keep people in their homes?
- sneak 7y ago
  http://abc3340.com/news/nation-world/police-alabama-woman-arrested-for-holding-party-during-covid-19-shelter-in-place-order http://abc3340.com/news/nation-world/police-alabama-woman-ar... https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/490445-louisiana-pastor-charged-with-misdemeanor-for-holding-services https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/490445-lou... These are not isolated incidents. To be clear, I don’t agree with their actions. I also don’t agree that what they were doing should be illegal.
  - FireBeyond 7y ago
    Being cited for coordinating and organizing specifically prohibited (sure, we can debate the merits of this) public gatherings in confined spaces is still several steps removed from "confined in home by force".
  - anigbrowl 7y ago
    Your counter-example for people disputing your claim about confinement is a woman who organized a party. This doesn't help your argument at all.

orblivion 7y ago

I was on the fence about attending a protest an hour away. Ended up not going. But I would absolutely be wearing a mask, at a distance from everybody else (look at what they did in Tel Aviv), and in the camp of "take this seriously, stay at home when you can (not ironic, I consider the protest important), take personal responsibility to save lives AND make room for people who have to work to maintain their livelihood, wear a mask and otherwise maximize safety when you do return to work". (Hard to fit that all on a sign, of course.) Reasons would be: 1) Don't you dare tell me protests are "non-essential" activities (see Raleigh PD) 2) Let people decide if they want to work. People are already quite cautious at this point. (I say this with some hesitation, which is one part of why I didn't go) There are important issues of health, economy, and government power grab. Most people on all sides of the issue seem to pick only one or two.

oldsklgdfth 7y ago
Is it safe to open up restaurants, bars, retails with social distancing and masks? Also, I'm skeptical of whether the US has the appropriate culture to handle such a thing.
- orblivion 7y ago
  Restaurants could probably open with spread out tables, open windows, etc. Bars maybe not, fair enough. But in most states I think both already are somewhat open with take out.

casefields 7y ago

Because the cure maybe worse using draconian lockdowns instead of just social distancing like Sweden: COVID-19 Is Likely to Lead to an Increase in Suicides: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/covid-19-is-likely-to-lead-to-an-increase-in-suicides/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/covid-19-i... The Untold Toll — The Pandemic’s Effects on Patients without Covid-19: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMms2009984 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMms2009984 Even if we open back up, we should still keep the elderly/at-risk populations as quarantined as possible. Practice social distancing. Not hold large festivals/gatherings/etc until we get a vaccine or achieve herd immunity.

sneak 7y ago
There are no draconian lockdowns, as yet, in the US, not are any currently planned.
- Kiro 7y ago
  Compared to Sweden they are certainly draconian.
  - watwut 7y ago
    Sweden argues that they have disciplined populace that does not socialize anyway. That they generally keep away from each other and follow rules without being forced to. I dont know whether it is true statistically, nor whether it will end up being food from them, but that is what people from Sweden argue.
  - vkou 7y ago
    Sweden is on an exponential growth curve, has five-to-ten times the deaths of its neighbours, is severely under-testing, and is instituting more and more aspects of a lockdown.
    - Kiro 7y ago
      It's not exponential any more. Just 40 new coronavirus deaths yesterday and the curve has been declining for two weeks (from a top of over 100). > and is instituting more and more aspects of a lockdown Like what? There haven't been any new restrictions for weeks.

skocznymroczny 7y ago

Lockdowns are very convenient for governments because they block protests. Now is the perfect time to pass all the inconvenient laws, because even if people march out on the streets, you can easily arrest them. And other, non-protesting part of the country will cheer you for it. At least until the other part wants to protest too and realizes it affects them as well.

throwaway0a5e 7y ago
> Now is the perfect time to pass all the inconvenient laws, because even if people march out on the streets, you can easily arrest them. And other, non-protesting part of the country will cheer you for it. At least until the other part wants to protest too and realizes it affects them as well. The governor of VA did exactly that. He got hit with a massive protest back in January(?) when it looked like he was gonna sign some gun related legislation. He signed a nearly identical bill recently while everyone was busy talking about Covid. Regardless of how you feel about the legislation I think it's a slimy move. I assume other state governors are doing the same things and just haven't heard about them yet.