5 ms·

Edit: skip this. I've read your links and it's clear you wouldn't fall into this trap. Sorry. I had a boss who relentlessly focused on getting things done, neg

Edit: skip this. I've read your links and it's clear you wouldn't fall into this trap. Sorry. I had a boss who relentlessly focused on getting things done, neglecting anything but the immediate cost. If the cost could be pushed into the future (well, that wasn't the calculation - it was more like 'can I ignore this right now') then it was. He built up a whole lot of technical debt that was expensive to deal with, and some never was dealt with, so continued costing permanently. Any thoughts?

rutthenut 7y ago
A problem I've seen a lot of too. In this case, the definition of 'done' is totally leaving out all that technical debt. Hence 'something' has been shipped, but the work has most definitely not been 'done'. Just giving an appearance of done, sweeping other stuff under the carpet. It gets expensive doing that. And gives a very lumpy carpet!
- ChrisMarshallNY 7y ago
  Take a gander at my work. It is quite possible to ship without debt, but you need to be flexible (the word “agile” is almost worthless, these days, so I prefer “flexible”).
  - throwaway_pdp09 7y ago
    > agile...worthless True IME. Any time I see the word Agile, I now consider it to mean Clusterfuck In Progress.
  - rutthenut 7y ago
    Think we've a lot in common. Maybe to do with being older and more experienced; been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I started with Assembler on Intel hardware and problems with coding that in scale aren't so different to today's environments. As for 'Agile', yep that died as a marketing phrase, even though the intentions (and the manifesto) are entirely valid. Flexible is a better choice now. Fragile is what we often get!
  - GrumpyYoungMan 7y ago
    > "the word 'agile' is almost worthless, these days, so I prefer 'flexible' It's kind of sad, though. What you said above ("I’ve learned to adopt an 'organic' project process, based on the assumption that it’s impossible to know the end result when I start.") is literally what Agile was trying to convey when it started out.
    - ChrisMarshallNY 7y ago
      Yup. I loved the Manifesto. They had the right idea. My experience is that things go pear-shaped when those pesky "people" get involved. It's all great on paper, and in the theoretical perfect world, but as soon as people start getting involved, and developing their own mental models, it can cause problems. A big factor, as well (IMNSHO), is that a lot of folks decided that they wanted to be "gatekeepers" of the methodology, so they started to formalize it, and develop a vocabulary that they "own." That happens with pretty much everything. I'm old, grumpy, and very experienced. A great deal of the programming that I do is "instinctual." I don't stop and say "This would be a great place for OBSERVER!". I just go ahead and set up a subscription management utility, and don't give a damn what it's called. In my experience, every time we come to a "new paradigm," a great deal of it is really just a formalization or rebranding of concepts that have been around for years.
ChrisMarshallNY 7y ago
It’s cool. Tech debt is a HUGE deal. Since I work alone (for the most part) these days, it’s an absolute killer. I can’t afford it at all. The single biggest guarantor of a massive debt (IMNSHO) is a rigid up-front specification.
- still_grokking 7y ago
  >The single biggest guarantor of a massive debt (IMNSHO) is a rigid up-front specification. Or the lack of any meaningful upfront planing. This goes in both ways. But I agree of course with the above. Detailed specs, especially done in some ivory tower, will cause massive problems, no question.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 7y ago
    This is what I do: https://littlegreenviper.com/miscellany/forensic-design-documentation/ https://littlegreenviper.com/miscellany/forensic-design-docu... I call the upfront spec my "Napkin Sketch." It's often a single diagram.

rutthenut 7y ago

A problem I've seen a lot of too. In this case, the definition of 'done' is totally leaving out all that technical debt. Hence 'something' has been shipped, but the work has most definitely not been 'done'. Just giving an appearance of done, sweeping other stuff under the carpet. It gets expensive doing that. And gives a very lumpy carpet!

ChrisMarshallNY 7y ago
Take a gander at my work. It is quite possible to ship without debt, but you need to be flexible (the word “agile” is almost worthless, these days, so I prefer “flexible”).
- throwaway_pdp09 7y ago
  > agile...worthless True IME. Any time I see the word Agile, I now consider it to mean Clusterfuck In Progress.
- rutthenut 7y ago
  Think we've a lot in common. Maybe to do with being older and more experienced; been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I started with Assembler on Intel hardware and problems with coding that in scale aren't so different to today's environments. As for 'Agile', yep that died as a marketing phrase, even though the intentions (and the manifesto) are entirely valid. Flexible is a better choice now. Fragile is what we often get!
- GrumpyYoungMan 7y ago
  > "the word 'agile' is almost worthless, these days, so I prefer 'flexible' It's kind of sad, though. What you said above ("I’ve learned to adopt an 'organic' project process, based on the assumption that it’s impossible to know the end result when I start.") is literally what Agile was trying to convey when it started out.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 7y ago
    Yup. I loved the Manifesto. They had the right idea. My experience is that things go pear-shaped when those pesky "people" get involved. It's all great on paper, and in the theoretical perfect world, but as soon as people start getting involved, and developing their own mental models, it can cause problems. A big factor, as well (IMNSHO), is that a lot of folks decided that they wanted to be "gatekeepers" of the methodology, so they started to formalize it, and develop a vocabulary that they "own." That happens with pretty much everything. I'm old, grumpy, and very experienced. A great deal of the programming that I do is "instinctual." I don't stop and say "This would be a great place for OBSERVER!". I just go ahead and set up a subscription management utility, and don't give a damn what it's called. In my experience, every time we come to a "new paradigm," a great deal of it is really just a formalization or rebranding of concepts that have been around for years.

ChrisMarshallNY 7y ago

It’s cool. Tech debt is a HUGE deal. Since I work alone (for the most part) these days, it’s an absolute killer. I can’t afford it at all. The single biggest guarantor of a massive debt (IMNSHO) is a rigid up-front specification.

still_grokking 7y ago
>The single biggest guarantor of a massive debt (IMNSHO) is a rigid up-front specification. Or the lack of any meaningful upfront planing. This goes in both ways. But I agree of course with the above. Detailed specs, especially done in some ivory tower, will cause massive problems, no question.
- ChrisMarshallNY 7y ago
  This is what I do: https://littlegreenviper.com/miscellany/forensic-design-documentation/ https://littlegreenviper.com/miscellany/forensic-design-docu... I call the upfront spec my "Napkin Sketch." It's often a single diagram.