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Is there any reason to believe that gauze masks are even slightly effective against influenza? The flu can stay viable in air for hours, and the individual exh

Is there any reason to believe that gauze masks are even slightly effective against influenza? The flu can stay viable in air for hours, and the individual exhaled airborne particles are vastly smaller than the holes in gauze -- it's "breathable" (allows moisture droplets to pass) I suspect the mechanism of action is inconveniencing people into not leaving home at all, a no-pants order would probably have worked as well or better

lliamander 6y ago
I don't know about the flu. Covid-19 is supposed to be spread mainly through respiratory droplets which settle on surfaces fairly quickly and which can be blocked by masks.
- woofie11 6y ago
  Well, I'd argue Covid-19 isn't supposed to infect us at all. I certainly didn't consent to Covid-19 coming into my body. And handwashing frequently is supposed to stop Covid-19 dead in its tracks. That's what our leaders told us. I think it's reasonable to say we don't understand Covid-19 completely, and that the information we do receive is often filtered. So for now, I am taking basic precautions against all-of-the-above, until we have hard data to the contrary: contact, large droplets, and aerosol.
  - lliamander 6y ago
    > So for now, I am taking basic precautions against all-of-the-above, until we have hard data to the contrary: contact, large droplets, and aerosol. Probably wise. I take the same approach.
kitotik 6y ago
According to this post, the data showed that it was effective. Placebo or coincidence?
Mr_P 6y ago
Masks are effective at stopping people from unintentionally infecting others. See: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/well/live/coronavirus-face-masks-guides-protection-personal-protective-equipment.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/well/live/coronavirus-fac... "Even a simple mask is very effective at trapping droplets from your coughs and sneezes. A recent study published in Nature from the University of Hong Kong and the University of Maryland asked 111 people, infected with various viral illnesses (influenza, rhinovirus and a more-mild coronavirus), to exhale into a giant funnel. Sometimes their noses and mouths weren’t covered; other times they used a simple, not-particularly-well-fitted mask. Without the masks, the infected people exhaled contagious droplets and aerosols, tiny particles that linger in the air, about 30 percent of the time they were tested. When the infected patients wore a mask, it blocked nearly 100 percent of viral droplets and some of the aerosol particles."
- partiallypro 6y ago
  The person you are replying to is talking specifically about Influenza which isn't spread as widely through droplets, while COVID-19 is spread this way almost exclusively.
  - Mr_P 6y ago
    "Most experts think that flu viruses spread mainly by droplets..." (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/spread.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/spread.htm)
    - partiallypro 6y ago
      Mainly /= exclusively. COVID as far as we know are spread exclusively through droplets. Influenza can be aerosolized https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/flu/transmission.html https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/flu/transmission.html
- DanBC 6y ago
  But see this research, which found masks didn't help prevent covid-19 from leaving infected people. https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764367/effectiveness-surgical-cotton-masks-blocking-sars-cov-2-controlled-comparison https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764367/effectiveness-sur... If people are going to wear masks we need to make sure that they don't touch the mask or their face, or that they wash their hands immediately after doing so.
partiallypro 6y ago
Yeah, I read the thread earlier today, and it seemed like there was some causality fallacy. At one point in the thread he says the cases dropped the weak masks were reinstated...but that doesn't really make sense, because viruses have incubation lags. That's not to say it had -no- effect or that it wouldn't have a larger effect in COVID19, but the evidence in the thread seemed pretty weak to me outside of pure anecdote and headline/timeline cherry picking.
- wolco 6y ago
  Cases will start showing up after a few days so by the end of the week one would expect cases to go down a bit.
- jtbayly 6y ago
  Actually, it’s worse than you remember. > “On Jan 17, the day the masking ordinance went into effect, the # of new cases/deaths declined, the first decline in quite some time. > > This continued until the epidemic faded, a signal that the mask ordinance had helped wipe out the Spanish Flu in San Francisco” Why on earth would anybody believe it was the masks that helped when reading the “evidence” in the first paragraph? The cases dropped the very same day the law was passed! So I’m supposed to believe that in just a few hours, the law had a measurable effect?! I don’t think so. My guess is that people had already seen the cases and deaths rising again in newspaper reports and had stopped going out as much again. Perhaps they had even started wearing masks again. I’m not trying to say masks are pointless. I’m trying to say that this narrative is absurd.
bobmaxup 6y ago
https://cen.acs.org/biological-chemistry/infectious-disease/best-material-homemade-coronavirus-face/98/web/2020/04 https://cen.acs.org/biological-chemistry/infectious-disease/...
- bobmaxup 6y ago
  https://academic.oup.com/view-large/figure/2074913/annhygmeq044f05_lw.gif https://academic.oup.com/view-large/figure/2074913/annhygmeq... https://academic.oup.com/annweh/article/54/7/789/202744 https://academic.oup.com/annweh/article/54/7/789/202744
adrianN 6y ago
There is evidence that homemade masks are slightly effective: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/
sevencolors 6y ago
One aspect of why any sort of mask is encouraged is that it helps prevent the unconscious face touching. I scratch at the side of my chin/beard when i'm thinking. With the mask on i sense it's present and causes me to stop the urge.
- DanBC 6y ago
  Masks need constant rearrangement. People wearing masks constantly touch the mask, often without washing their hands afterwards.
  - jfoster 6y ago
    The mask covers up your primary facial mucous membranes. (nose & mouth, but not eyes) The virus will not go through your hands or face. Wear a mask, avoid touching your eyes (wear glasses?) and you're most of the way there. Keep washing your hands anyway though.
  - justsomefool 6y ago
    Curios if you have actually tried wearing a mask? I touch my face way less with one and think about it each time i do. yes i rearrange the mask sometimes, but then i go wash my hands.. and as i wear a mask more, my need to rearrange it drops. it also is a social cue for anyone around me to think about the hygiene issues if they see me touch the mask which they don't get when i am not wearing a mask.
heleninboodler 6y ago
Is there any reason to believe that coughing into the crook of your elbow is effective? Yes. Neither is N95 certified, but they are both physical impediments to particles directly flying out of your mouth/nose onto other people. Why is this hard to believe?
- CaptArmchair 6y ago
  That's where social sciences come in. Because people associate wearing a mask with disease, restrictions, illness and so on. A mask taps into beliefs and deep-seated fears about society, the wider world, uncertainty, personal freedom, body autonomy and public health. As such, in Western culture, wearing masks carries widespread stigma: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/america-asia-face-mask-coronavirus/609283/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/america... https://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/wearing-a-mask-while-asian/Content?oid=78894606 https://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/wearing-a-mask-while-a... Wearing a mask is a stark wake up call whereas many people simply want to go to business-as-usual as before. During the 1918 pandemic, SF ordered people to wear masks several times. At one point, some people were fed up and started an "anti-mask league". Today, washing your hands is not questioned, and social norms dictate that one washes their hands at various times. It's something you get taught to do from a young age. That wasn't always the case, as washing hands was heavily opposed in the 19th century when it was first suggested by Ignaz Semmelweiss and Florence Nightingale. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis It took time, campaigning and a lot of education across several generations to get to this point.
ashtonkem 6y ago
One of the mistakes in considering mask usage is falling into an all or nothing trap. A hypothetical mask that reduces the chance of someone else catching a disease from you by 30% would provide a significant drag on the R0 of the disease, hastening the end of the epidemic. Also, infection rates of several types of viruses, including flu and enterovirus, dropped significantly in southeast asian countries that moved to universal mask wearing during this pandemic. Since most people weren’t wearing N95 PPE, that implies that even surgical masks are effective at slowing the spread of several types of viruses. Also, you know, there is a reason why surgeons wear them.
mariodiana 6y ago
Here's the thing. These masks are meant to be used and then disposed of. In a hospital, under normal conditions, there is a protocol to follow in their use. But the overwhelming majority of people are not going to be using them properly. Instead, they're going to end up wearing their very own little petri dishes on their face. Originally, we were told masks wouldn't help. Now, we're told they will. Obviously, the science here isn't settled. Mask use is more political than anything. Here's an article: "Cloth masks – dangerous to your health?" https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/health/cloth-masks-–-dangerous-your-health https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/health/cloth-masks-–-dange... And then there's this: "Sweeping mask recommendations—as many have proposed—will not reduce SARS-CoV-2 transmission, as evidenced by the widespread practice of wearing such masks in Hubei province, China, before and during its mass COVID-19 transmission experience earlier this year." And, further on down: "[An experimental study] seeking a reason for the failure of cloth masks required for the public in stopping the 1918 influenza pandemic, found that the number of cloth layers needed to achieve acceptable efficiency made them difficult to breathe through and caused leakage around the mask." https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commenta...
- treis 6y ago
  >Here's an article: "Cloth masks – dangerous to your health?" >https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/health/cloth-masks-–-dange.. https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/health/cloth-masks-–-dange.... Jesus, how do people get away with articles and studies like this. The control they used was: >‘standard practice’, which comprised mask use in a high proportion of participants. So ultimately they're comparing cloth masks to surgical masks and, no shit, surgical masks are better. How they draw the conclusion that cloth masks are dangerous is beyond me.
  - seanmcdirmid 6y ago
    I can see them becoming dangerous if they aren’t washed, but that should be easy for a cloth mask that is machine wash friendly. Reusing a disposable mask that can’t be washed is probably a bad idea.

lliamander 6y ago

I don't know about the flu. Covid-19 is supposed to be spread mainly through respiratory droplets which settle on surfaces fairly quickly and which can be blocked by masks.

woofie11 6y ago
Well, I'd argue Covid-19 isn't supposed to infect us at all. I certainly didn't consent to Covid-19 coming into my body. And handwashing frequently is supposed to stop Covid-19 dead in its tracks. That's what our leaders told us. I think it's reasonable to say we don't understand Covid-19 completely, and that the information we do receive is often filtered. So for now, I am taking basic precautions against all-of-the-above, until we have hard data to the contrary: contact, large droplets, and aerosol.
- lliamander 6y ago
  > So for now, I am taking basic precautions against all-of-the-above, until we have hard data to the contrary: contact, large droplets, and aerosol. Probably wise. I take the same approach.

kitotik 6y ago

According to this post, the data showed that it was effective. Placebo or coincidence?

Mr_P 6y ago

Masks are effective at stopping people from unintentionally infecting others. See: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/well/live/coronavirus-face-masks-guides-protection-personal-protective-equipment.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/well/live/coronavirus-fac... "Even a simple mask is very effective at trapping droplets from your coughs and sneezes. A recent study published in Nature from the University of Hong Kong and the University of Maryland asked 111 people, infected with various viral illnesses (influenza, rhinovirus and a more-mild coronavirus), to exhale into a giant funnel. Sometimes their noses and mouths weren’t covered; other times they used a simple, not-particularly-well-fitted mask. Without the masks, the infected people exhaled contagious droplets and aerosols, tiny particles that linger in the air, about 30 percent of the time they were tested. When the infected patients wore a mask, it blocked nearly 100 percent of viral droplets and some of the aerosol particles."

partiallypro 6y ago
The person you are replying to is talking specifically about Influenza which isn't spread as widely through droplets, while COVID-19 is spread this way almost exclusively.
- Mr_P 6y ago
  "Most experts think that flu viruses spread mainly by droplets..." (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/spread.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/spread.htm)
  - partiallypro 6y ago
    Mainly /= exclusively. COVID as far as we know are spread exclusively through droplets. Influenza can be aerosolized https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/flu/transmission.html https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/flu/transmission.html
DanBC 6y ago
But see this research, which found masks didn't help prevent covid-19 from leaving infected people. https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764367/effectiveness-surgical-cotton-masks-blocking-sars-cov-2-controlled-comparison https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764367/effectiveness-sur... If people are going to wear masks we need to make sure that they don't touch the mask or their face, or that they wash their hands immediately after doing so.

partiallypro 6y ago

Yeah, I read the thread earlier today, and it seemed like there was some causality fallacy. At one point in the thread he says the cases dropped the weak masks were reinstated...but that doesn't really make sense, because viruses have incubation lags. That's not to say it had -no- effect or that it wouldn't have a larger effect in COVID19, but the evidence in the thread seemed pretty weak to me outside of pure anecdote and headline/timeline cherry picking.

wolco 6y ago
Cases will start showing up after a few days so by the end of the week one would expect cases to go down a bit.
jtbayly 6y ago
Actually, it’s worse than you remember. > “On Jan 17, the day the masking ordinance went into effect, the # of new cases/deaths declined, the first decline in quite some time. > > This continued until the epidemic faded, a signal that the mask ordinance had helped wipe out the Spanish Flu in San Francisco” Why on earth would anybody believe it was the masks that helped when reading the “evidence” in the first paragraph? The cases dropped the very same day the law was passed! So I’m supposed to believe that in just a few hours, the law had a measurable effect?! I don’t think so. My guess is that people had already seen the cases and deaths rising again in newspaper reports and had stopped going out as much again. Perhaps they had even started wearing masks again. I’m not trying to say masks are pointless. I’m trying to say that this narrative is absurd.

bobmaxup 6y ago

https://cen.acs.org/biological-chemistry/infectious-disease/best-material-homemade-coronavirus-face/98/web/2020/04 https://cen.acs.org/biological-chemistry/infectious-disease/...

bobmaxup 6y ago
https://academic.oup.com/view-large/figure/2074913/annhygmeq044f05_lw.gif https://academic.oup.com/view-large/figure/2074913/annhygmeq... https://academic.oup.com/annweh/article/54/7/789/202744 https://academic.oup.com/annweh/article/54/7/789/202744

adrianN 6y ago

There is evidence that homemade masks are slightly effective: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/

sevencolors 6y ago

One aspect of why any sort of mask is encouraged is that it helps prevent the unconscious face touching. I scratch at the side of my chin/beard when i'm thinking. With the mask on i sense it's present and causes me to stop the urge.

DanBC 6y ago
Masks need constant rearrangement. People wearing masks constantly touch the mask, often without washing their hands afterwards.
- jfoster 6y ago
  The mask covers up your primary facial mucous membranes. (nose & mouth, but not eyes) The virus will not go through your hands or face. Wear a mask, avoid touching your eyes (wear glasses?) and you're most of the way there. Keep washing your hands anyway though.
- justsomefool 6y ago
  Curios if you have actually tried wearing a mask? I touch my face way less with one and think about it each time i do. yes i rearrange the mask sometimes, but then i go wash my hands.. and as i wear a mask more, my need to rearrange it drops. it also is a social cue for anyone around me to think about the hygiene issues if they see me touch the mask which they don't get when i am not wearing a mask.

heleninboodler 6y ago

Is there any reason to believe that coughing into the crook of your elbow is effective? Yes. Neither is N95 certified, but they are both physical impediments to particles directly flying out of your mouth/nose onto other people. Why is this hard to believe?

CaptArmchair 6y ago
That's where social sciences come in. Because people associate wearing a mask with disease, restrictions, illness and so on. A mask taps into beliefs and deep-seated fears about society, the wider world, uncertainty, personal freedom, body autonomy and public health. As such, in Western culture, wearing masks carries widespread stigma: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/america-asia-face-mask-coronavirus/609283/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/america... https://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/wearing-a-mask-while-asian/Content?oid=78894606 https://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/wearing-a-mask-while-a... Wearing a mask is a stark wake up call whereas many people simply want to go to business-as-usual as before. During the 1918 pandemic, SF ordered people to wear masks several times. At one point, some people were fed up and started an "anti-mask league". Today, washing your hands is not questioned, and social norms dictate that one washes their hands at various times. It's something you get taught to do from a young age. That wasn't always the case, as washing hands was heavily opposed in the 19th century when it was first suggested by Ignaz Semmelweiss and Florence Nightingale. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis It took time, campaigning and a lot of education across several generations to get to this point.

ashtonkem 6y ago

One of the mistakes in considering mask usage is falling into an all or nothing trap. A hypothetical mask that reduces the chance of someone else catching a disease from you by 30% would provide a significant drag on the R0 of the disease, hastening the end of the epidemic. Also, infection rates of several types of viruses, including flu and enterovirus, dropped significantly in southeast asian countries that moved to universal mask wearing during this pandemic. Since most people weren’t wearing N95 PPE, that implies that even surgical masks are effective at slowing the spread of several types of viruses. Also, you know, there is a reason why surgeons wear them.

mariodiana 6y ago

Here's the thing. These masks are meant to be used and then disposed of. In a hospital, under normal conditions, there is a protocol to follow in their use. But the overwhelming majority of people are not going to be using them properly. Instead, they're going to end up wearing their very own little petri dishes on their face. Originally, we were told masks wouldn't help. Now, we're told they will. Obviously, the science here isn't settled. Mask use is more political than anything. Here's an article: "Cloth masks – dangerous to your health?" https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/health/cloth-masks-–-dangerous-your-health https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/health/cloth-masks-–-dange... And then there's this: "Sweeping mask recommendations—as many have proposed—will not reduce SARS-CoV-2 transmission, as evidenced by the widespread practice of wearing such masks in Hubei province, China, before and during its mass COVID-19 transmission experience earlier this year." And, further on down: "[An experimental study] seeking a reason for the failure of cloth masks required for the public in stopping the 1918 influenza pandemic, found that the number of cloth layers needed to achieve acceptable efficiency made them difficult to breathe through and caused leakage around the mask." https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commenta...

treis 6y ago
>Here's an article: "Cloth masks – dangerous to your health?" >https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/health/cloth-masks-–-dange.. https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/health/cloth-masks-–-dange.... Jesus, how do people get away with articles and studies like this. The control they used was: >‘standard practice’, which comprised mask use in a high proportion of participants. So ultimately they're comparing cloth masks to surgical masks and, no shit, surgical masks are better. How they draw the conclusion that cloth masks are dangerous is beyond me.
- seanmcdirmid 6y ago
  I can see them becoming dangerous if they aren’t washed, but that should be easy for a cloth mask that is machine wash friendly. Reusing a disposable mask that can’t be washed is probably a bad idea.