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I don't think there is any sort of unanimity regarding UBI. Being compensated for staying home is not UBI, because it is not ongoing. I'm against UBI for reas

I don't think there is any sort of unanimity regarding UBI. Being compensated for staying home is not UBI, because it is not ongoing. I'm against UBI for reasons that became apparent while playing MMORPGs. Stay with me here and I'll explain. Players of an RPG want a fun game. But they also want to succeed/win. These goals partially conflict. If they prioritize winning too highly, and pester customer support to make the game easier (nerf), the game loses it's fun. Even (in my estimation) to the people who pestered customer support. Because some people aren't self aware enough (kids) to realize that the challenge is what makes it fun. In life, we want to be lazy. I certainly do. And that desire makes me think a UBI would be quite nice. But I also realize that I most certainly would be lazy. I'm already working less than 20 hours per week (pre-COVID) because my mortgage is paid and I don't really need the money anymore. With a UBI I might stop work completely. But as a society, if a lot of people like me slack off more, the real economy will suffer. Less hours will be worked, prices will go up, and the economy will be more depressed and sluggish. Robots could save us but we are not there yet, not by a long shot. Maybe we are there in very specific manufacturing industries, but no robot is going to install a new roof on my house (for example). So I think we should wait until after all the jobs are taken by robots (rather than thinking it's imminent when it's most certainly not) to institute UBI. Eventually. But not any time soon. OTOH I'm perfectly okay with a means-tested payout to people who really need it.

mikedilger 6y ago
If you downvote me because you disagree, PLEASE share your thoughts on this. I cannot understand why you disagree if you simply downvote.
- Supermancho 6y ago
  There are too many ideas in your post. Some of which make sense, some do not. > Players of an RPG want a fun game. I don't think you understand game theory and design well enough to be commenting. Generally, games are about learning about the world and performing pattern recognition to optimize in a constrained environment. MMORPGs have LOTS of games within them, some of which are completely player driven. > as a society, if a lot of people like me slack off more, the real economy will suffer Slack off? Real economy? Suffer? Soft terms that are composed into an unqualified statement. There is sentiment, but no meaning. > Robots could save us but we are not there yet, not by a long shot. Now meandering on to robots for some reason, which is not related to previous points. Some forums (like this one) prefer smaller assertions with arguments and typically reward those who track down supporting documentation or revealing technical support (equations, papers, historical references, active research, etc). Ironically, HN posts are preferred when people put work into them :)
  - mikedilger 6y ago
    The reason I asked was to learn more about UBI and other people's perspectives on it. Not to be chastized and offended. None of this comment was helpful. I'd explain why sentence by sentence but I doubt that would be a fruitful exercise.
    - Supermancho 6y ago
      > Not to be chastized and offended. I didn't mean to offend you, but to help you understand why you were downvoted. This is from my own experiences as you can see from my post history. I'm not popular. This forum has a very specific...expectation (as well as some strong biases) for even the most casual comments.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> In life, we want to be lazy. Therea plenty of evidence that this isn't really all that true, and that if there is even a modicum of apparent reward for extra labor, people will continue to put extra labor in for that reward, often even past the point where that extra nominal reward seems to provide any additional real utility for them. > . I'm already working less than 20 hours per week (pre-COVID) because my mortgage is paid and I don't really need the money anymore Very few people, even well into the income range where research shows no additional subjective utility to additional earnings, ever reach the point where they recognize that they don't need any more money. So, you aren't typical and your entire argument seems to rest on assuming your atypical attitude holds generally. > But as a society, if a lot of people like me slack off more, the real economy will suffer. Anthropomorphizing the economy here obscures rather than aids understanding; what would happen if abstention from additional effort were excessively common is inflation, bringing down the real value of the UBI and reducing the number of people who found it sufficient to not exert additional effort, pushing people back into the workforce. It's a self-controlling negative feedback system.
- Supermancho 6y ago
  >> In life, we want to be lazy. > Therea plenty of evidence that this isn't really all that true "All that true" doesn't mean anything and is ostensibly misleading, ie false. There are segments of the population (pareto) that try to excel, but they generally do not do it sustainably (burnout). Common terminology...scams, shortcuts, work smarter not harder, are all colloquialisms centered around basic human behavior. Even working in ANY industry, people do everything in their power to either accrue wealth simply and/or make their work easier, without taking on additional work and asking for more compensation for doing more with their time.
- mikedilger 6y ago
  I may have overstated, believing people on average are more like myself than they are. But I think you're likely doing the same thing in the opposite direction, believing people will keep working hard for little benefit when many of them wont. Let's just agree there are different kinds of people and they will behave differently, and my argument has some merit, as does yours. There was no anthropomorphizing in my statements.

mikedilger 6y ago

If you downvote me because you disagree, PLEASE share your thoughts on this. I cannot understand why you disagree if you simply downvote.

Supermancho 6y ago
There are too many ideas in your post. Some of which make sense, some do not. > Players of an RPG want a fun game. I don't think you understand game theory and design well enough to be commenting. Generally, games are about learning about the world and performing pattern recognition to optimize in a constrained environment. MMORPGs have LOTS of games within them, some of which are completely player driven. > as a society, if a lot of people like me slack off more, the real economy will suffer Slack off? Real economy? Suffer? Soft terms that are composed into an unqualified statement. There is sentiment, but no meaning. > Robots could save us but we are not there yet, not by a long shot. Now meandering on to robots for some reason, which is not related to previous points. Some forums (like this one) prefer smaller assertions with arguments and typically reward those who track down supporting documentation or revealing technical support (equations, papers, historical references, active research, etc). Ironically, HN posts are preferred when people put work into them :)
- mikedilger 6y ago
  The reason I asked was to learn more about UBI and other people's perspectives on it. Not to be chastized and offended. None of this comment was helpful. I'd explain why sentence by sentence but I doubt that would be a fruitful exercise.
  - Supermancho 6y ago
    > Not to be chastized and offended. I didn't mean to offend you, but to help you understand why you were downvoted. This is from my own experiences as you can see from my post history. I'm not popular. This forum has a very specific...expectation (as well as some strong biases) for even the most casual comments.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> In life, we want to be lazy. Therea plenty of evidence that this isn't really all that true, and that if there is even a modicum of apparent reward for extra labor, people will continue to put extra labor in for that reward, often even past the point where that extra nominal reward seems to provide any additional real utility for them. > . I'm already working less than 20 hours per week (pre-COVID) because my mortgage is paid and I don't really need the money anymore Very few people, even well into the income range where research shows no additional subjective utility to additional earnings, ever reach the point where they recognize that they don't need any more money. So, you aren't typical and your entire argument seems to rest on assuming your atypical attitude holds generally. > But as a society, if a lot of people like me slack off more, the real economy will suffer. Anthropomorphizing the economy here obscures rather than aids understanding; what would happen if abstention from additional effort were excessively common is inflation, bringing down the real value of the UBI and reducing the number of people who found it sufficient to not exert additional effort, pushing people back into the workforce. It's a self-controlling negative feedback system.

Supermancho 6y ago
>> In life, we want to be lazy. > Therea plenty of evidence that this isn't really all that true "All that true" doesn't mean anything and is ostensibly misleading, ie false. There are segments of the population (pareto) that try to excel, but they generally do not do it sustainably (burnout). Common terminology...scams, shortcuts, work smarter not harder, are all colloquialisms centered around basic human behavior. Even working in ANY industry, people do everything in their power to either accrue wealth simply and/or make their work easier, without taking on additional work and asking for more compensation for doing more with their time.
mikedilger 6y ago
I may have overstated, believing people on average are more like myself than they are. But I think you're likely doing the same thing in the opposite direction, believing people will keep working hard for little benefit when many of them wont. Let's just agree there are different kinds of people and they will behave differently, and my argument has some merit, as does yours. There was no anthropomorphizing in my statements.