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Googler. Yes, I think the backlash is all deserved. I’ve been here for many years, since back when any criticism was still very niche, and at the beginning it w

Googler. Yes, I think the backlash is all deserved. I’ve been here for many years, since back when any criticism was still very niche, and at the beginning it was different. Obviously morally superior to working at a bank, and more meaningful than working on Snapchat for Sourdough Starters or similar dumb startups. Now it’s no better than the banks, and they’re even chasing military contracts. And the work is largely pointless tedium. I’ve thought of leaving for years. Problem is: I have a wife who doesn’t work, two kids, piles of debt, and live in the most expensive city in the country. We can’t just leave, our whole life is here. And moving to a bank now to make more money (if I even would, the tenure and promotions do pile up) means working harder and more hours. That comes out of spending time with my young kids. I spent a couple of years having a tough time with this. It genuinely caused a long-term, slow burn existential crisis that only recently started to settle into a stable state. All of life is moral compromise, I think. It sucks and I’m sorry, but it would be too hard to stop and I’m just sort of accepting that now.

bonfire 6y ago
snapchat for sourdough starters exists?! what is it called?
nihil75 6y ago
I worked for a corp at a similar "golden cage" position, where switching would incur a pay-cut and working harder for longer hours. Eventually I changed company. I looked at the beurocrats around me and realised I'll end up like them - my tech skills on the decline, learning only how to manipulate and cover my ass. We grow in the face of adversity and challenge. I think as an ex-Googler you'll have a choice of interesting positions that will benefit your career in the long run.
- throwaway_g_67 6y ago
  I believe that ethics are incompatible with capitalism, so this kind of personal choice doesn't change anything. You can change jobs from one evil company to another. What would work is enough people willing to organise politically. Unions, people. This is a synchronization problem.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - anonymousobvi 6y ago
    > Unions, people. Yes. If Google knew, say, 25% of its highly-skilled engineering workforce would strike in the face of unethical business practices, Google would not engage in unethical business practices. Tech companies are assholes because we allow them to be. There are also companies who happen to make money doing something more-or-less good - for example life-saving medical devices, and even a company like Roland, which makes music equipment. I think those things contribute to a meaningful life, and are a good place to land if you're jumping ship.
throwaway_g_67 6y ago
Another Googler here, thanks for saving me the typingm Yes, Google does unethical things. This sucks and I feel uncomfortable supporting it. Quitting is just too costly in terms of personal cost and would not have much effect.
- mav3rick 6y ago
  By in large Google tries to go good. No company is perfect.
  - igetspam 6y ago
    Cite your sources. I spent years at Google. The trajectory was obvious even a decade ago. There were many reasons to leave and many of us did. I didn't have to wait for a line in the sand because we knew what was on the horizon and leaving was easy. (I did not have a family then, which is a consideration and why I left one of my last startups. Baby on the way, acquired by a big corp and knew it would be easy to become chained to that desk.)
- dangus 6y ago
  To you and your parent comment, coming from outside of Google: Anytime you get a large enough group of people, minimum size of one, evil will exist. That’s something we have to learn how to cope with, and sometimes we have to accept that we aren’t in control. There’s sort of a rebel spirit in the USA where people see themselves as perpetuating evil if they’re not actively fighting it, boycotting this and that, throwing the tea in the Boston harbor. On the flip side, I’d make the argument that one’s personal self-preservation is more important than “making a difference,” and that people have way less of a chance to make a difference than they give themselves credit for. As you said, quitting Google would not have much effect. All of that said, I don’t see anything uniquely evil about Google compared to any other Fortune 500 or even much smaller mid-sized business. I think I could even make the argument that they are decidedly less evil than many much smaller businesses with approximately 200 employees. And the upside of Google is tremendous. A lot of commercial products have an incredibly positive impact. I just don’t think anyone has to feel bad for holding down a steady job, especially since we shouldn’t judge people on their employment prestige in the first place. Having the ability to choose employer based on moral compass is itself an indicator of privilege, so I wouldn’t want to look down on a cigarette company employee (especially individual contributors) for holding down that job, never mind a software company that makes a bunch of stuff that people largely like and benefit from.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
barneygale 6y ago
> And the borrowing was deliberately encouraged because people in debt are slaves to their employers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX-P4mx1FLU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX-P4mx1FLU
- jfalcon 6y ago
  And the employers are a slave to how modern money is made. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcGh1Dex4Yo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcGh1Dex4Yo
mav3rick 6y ago
Just as a counterpoint many happy Googlers will not come here and post "We like it ". Sorry your work sucks. You can transfer to more interesting teams.
- throwaway22349 6y ago
  I’ve had eight managers and six teams in three PAs. Not that frequent changes either. I assure you this is not an uncommon opinion.
hckr_news 6y ago
You should focus on clearing your debts
- crispyporkbites 6y ago
  If this person has been at google for years it’s almost certainly a massive mortgage, which isn’t really debt in the traditional sense
  - IshKebab 6y ago
    Agreed, I expect that is what they meant. "Massive debt" implies credit cards, gambling, or at least student loans. A mortgage isn't a massive debt like that because it is against the value of the house that you own. If you want you can just sell your house and be debt-free. You can't do that with credit cards. I looked into moving to silicon valley for the enormous salaries, and even when you take into account the insane rent you're still taking home more than you would anywhere else in the world. I suspect it is the prospect of a pay cut keeping him there rather than actual massive debts.
fdeage 6y ago
Thanks for your reply, and sorry to hear you feel trapped in your company right now. Do you feel like this feeling is common among Googlers? Also, I'd be very interested in hearing what you think of the reasons from Googlers defending the company, since you probably hear them a lot by working at Google.
- mav3rick 6y ago
  Many many Googlers are happy. Also many have stopped coming here because of this circle jerk / echo of many many posts against Google. Some posts clearly state how the author has it against Google after not clearing the interviews "they deserved" to clear.
  - unusximmortalis 6y ago
    if they only knew what their company is doing... but they don't. ignorance is bliss.
MperorM 6y ago
I would like to thank all the wonderful people like you who created such amazing products for me to use. I am sorry to hear that you have experienced mental anguish due to this. From my perspective you should feel pride and accomplishment from having contributed to helping millions of people every day. I get dozens of questions answered each day through your search engine that before would go unanswered. (my last question was: "how does a digital scale work?") I get to write beautiful documents, spreadsheets and presentations that I can easily share with colleagues, who in turn, easily can provide feedback and comments inside the documents themselves. I tracked the length of my last run with only my phone using android and maps, something that otherwise would have been difficult to do. My family easily collects photos of our holiday together in a single shared space. These are just the first things that came to mind I used google for in the last week. Whatever evils google do, you do at least as much good as well. It's absurd to me that you are feeling guilt because of this. I can't tell you what to feel, but people like you have made my life significantly better and I want to express thankfulness for that.
- mav3rick 6y ago
  Thank you for this comment. HN just likes to put Google's contributions down.
  - RestlessMind 6y ago
    I believe all across internet, there is a paid army of trolls who just want to spew vitriol about a company, paid directly/indirectly by the detractors of the said company. Granted, there are a few true believers but these days in general, I find only negative news / comments about more and more companies.
    - 93po 6y ago
      It's almost like companies are doing more and more negative things to comment about.
      - mav3rick 6y ago
aerojoe23 6y ago
Have you talked with your wife about it?
RestlessMind 6y ago
Please don't feel bad about yourself. Very very very few people can have high standards in life and continue living up to those standards where no one will ever criticize them (heck, even Mother Teresa got a lot of criticism[1]). > All of life is moral compromise So true. I wonder what sort of life critics of FANG/big-tech live. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa

bonfire 6y ago

snapchat for sourdough starters exists?! what is it called?

nihil75 6y ago

I worked for a corp at a similar "golden cage" position, where switching would incur a pay-cut and working harder for longer hours. Eventually I changed company. I looked at the beurocrats around me and realised I'll end up like them - my tech skills on the decline, learning only how to manipulate and cover my ass. We grow in the face of adversity and challenge. I think as an ex-Googler you'll have a choice of interesting positions that will benefit your career in the long run.

throwaway_g_67 6y ago
I believe that ethics are incompatible with capitalism, so this kind of personal choice doesn't change anything. You can change jobs from one evil company to another. What would work is enough people willing to organise politically. Unions, people. This is a synchronization problem.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- anonymousobvi 6y ago
  > Unions, people. Yes. If Google knew, say, 25% of its highly-skilled engineering workforce would strike in the face of unethical business practices, Google would not engage in unethical business practices. Tech companies are assholes because we allow them to be. There are also companies who happen to make money doing something more-or-less good - for example life-saving medical devices, and even a company like Roland, which makes music equipment. I think those things contribute to a meaningful life, and are a good place to land if you're jumping ship.

throwaway_g_67 6y ago

Another Googler here, thanks for saving me the typingm Yes, Google does unethical things. This sucks and I feel uncomfortable supporting it. Quitting is just too costly in terms of personal cost and would not have much effect.

mav3rick 6y ago
By in large Google tries to go good. No company is perfect.
- igetspam 6y ago
  Cite your sources. I spent years at Google. The trajectory was obvious even a decade ago. There were many reasons to leave and many of us did. I didn't have to wait for a line in the sand because we knew what was on the horizon and leaving was easy. (I did not have a family then, which is a consideration and why I left one of my last startups. Baby on the way, acquired by a big corp and knew it would be easy to become chained to that desk.)
dangus 6y ago
To you and your parent comment, coming from outside of Google: Anytime you get a large enough group of people, minimum size of one, evil will exist. That’s something we have to learn how to cope with, and sometimes we have to accept that we aren’t in control. There’s sort of a rebel spirit in the USA where people see themselves as perpetuating evil if they’re not actively fighting it, boycotting this and that, throwing the tea in the Boston harbor. On the flip side, I’d make the argument that one’s personal self-preservation is more important than “making a difference,” and that people have way less of a chance to make a difference than they give themselves credit for. As you said, quitting Google would not have much effect. All of that said, I don’t see anything uniquely evil about Google compared to any other Fortune 500 or even much smaller mid-sized business. I think I could even make the argument that they are decidedly less evil than many much smaller businesses with approximately 200 employees. And the upside of Google is tremendous. A lot of commercial products have an incredibly positive impact. I just don’t think anyone has to feel bad for holding down a steady job, especially since we shouldn’t judge people on their employment prestige in the first place. Having the ability to choose employer based on moral compass is itself an indicator of privilege, so I wouldn’t want to look down on a cigarette company employee (especially individual contributors) for holding down that job, never mind a software company that makes a bunch of stuff that people largely like and benefit from.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

barneygale 6y ago

> And the borrowing was deliberately encouraged because people in debt are slaves to their employers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX-P4mx1FLU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX-P4mx1FLU

jfalcon 6y ago
And the employers are a slave to how modern money is made. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcGh1Dex4Yo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcGh1Dex4Yo

mav3rick 6y ago

Just as a counterpoint many happy Googlers will not come here and post "We like it ". Sorry your work sucks. You can transfer to more interesting teams.

throwaway22349 6y ago
I’ve had eight managers and six teams in three PAs. Not that frequent changes either. I assure you this is not an uncommon opinion.

hckr_news 6y ago

You should focus on clearing your debts

crispyporkbites 6y ago
If this person has been at google for years it’s almost certainly a massive mortgage, which isn’t really debt in the traditional sense
- IshKebab 6y ago
  Agreed, I expect that is what they meant. "Massive debt" implies credit cards, gambling, or at least student loans. A mortgage isn't a massive debt like that because it is against the value of the house that you own. If you want you can just sell your house and be debt-free. You can't do that with credit cards. I looked into moving to silicon valley for the enormous salaries, and even when you take into account the insane rent you're still taking home more than you would anywhere else in the world. I suspect it is the prospect of a pay cut keeping him there rather than actual massive debts.

fdeage 6y ago

Thanks for your reply, and sorry to hear you feel trapped in your company right now. Do you feel like this feeling is common among Googlers? Also, I'd be very interested in hearing what you think of the reasons from Googlers defending the company, since you probably hear them a lot by working at Google.

mav3rick 6y ago
Many many Googlers are happy. Also many have stopped coming here because of this circle jerk / echo of many many posts against Google. Some posts clearly state how the author has it against Google after not clearing the interviews "they deserved" to clear.
- unusximmortalis 6y ago
  if they only knew what their company is doing... but they don't. ignorance is bliss.

MperorM 6y ago

I would like to thank all the wonderful people like you who created such amazing products for me to use. I am sorry to hear that you have experienced mental anguish due to this. From my perspective you should feel pride and accomplishment from having contributed to helping millions of people every day. I get dozens of questions answered each day through your search engine that before would go unanswered. (my last question was: "how does a digital scale work?") I get to write beautiful documents, spreadsheets and presentations that I can easily share with colleagues, who in turn, easily can provide feedback and comments inside the documents themselves. I tracked the length of my last run with only my phone using android and maps, something that otherwise would have been difficult to do. My family easily collects photos of our holiday together in a single shared space. These are just the first things that came to mind I used google for in the last week. Whatever evils google do, you do at least as much good as well. It's absurd to me that you are feeling guilt because of this. I can't tell you what to feel, but people like you have made my life significantly better and I want to express thankfulness for that.

mav3rick 6y ago
Thank you for this comment. HN just likes to put Google's contributions down.
- RestlessMind 6y ago
  I believe all across internet, there is a paid army of trolls who just want to spew vitriol about a company, paid directly/indirectly by the detractors of the said company. Granted, there are a few true believers but these days in general, I find only negative news / comments about more and more companies.
  - 93po 6y ago
    It's almost like companies are doing more and more negative things to comment about.
    - mav3rick 6y ago

aerojoe23 6y ago

Have you talked with your wife about it?

RestlessMind 6y ago

Please don't feel bad about yourself. Very very very few people can have high standards in life and continue living up to those standards where no one will ever criticize them (heck, even Mother Teresa got a lot of criticism[1]). > All of life is moral compromise So true. I wonder what sort of life critics of FANG/big-tech live. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa