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Here in suffering Sweden 80% of covid patients in intensive care survive. I read that 80% of NY ICU patients on ventilation dies. Are we perhaps using less mec

Here in suffering Sweden 80% of covid patients in intensive care survive. I read that 80% of NY ICU patients on ventilation dies. Are we perhaps using less mechanical breathing devices here i Sweden? Edit: this didn’t come out right... couldn’t find total icu death rate but have read stories about high mortality in NY.

garmaine 7y ago
In ICU and on ventilation are not the same thing.
- walshemj 7y ago
  Exactly I have been in an ICU and I was on those annoying nasal oxygen and not itubated
  - greedo 7y ago
    Trust me, having a canula is much more pleasant than intubation.
- jordanbeiber 7y ago
  No true that. Couldn’t find this data for us/ny. It seems like there’s been a high focus on ventilator supply so I was just guessing a lot of severe icu cases would be put on one. I have no idea, but would like to know.
watwut 7y ago
Obviously, not everyone in ICU is on ventilator. This is true in both countries. If there was dishonest statistical comparison, this is the one.
- jordanbeiber 7y ago
  It is a question though. I have no idea.
  - watwut 7y ago
    That is not question. That is easy to figure out public information.
    - jordanbeiber 7y ago
      I’ve spent an honest 20 minutes looking for corona ICU survival statistics. It might be public, but not easy to google. In the UK it seems to be 50%.
      - watwut 7y ago
        The easy to find part is that not everyone in ICU is not attached to ventilator. Most people are not attached there.
        jordanbeiber 7y ago
        The data out there indicate a 50% ICU death rate in general. Ventilators seem to exacerbate the condition for covid patients. Sweden seem to have better success with intensive care than average. Are we perhaps intubating less. Train of thought ^.
        pbhjpbhj 7y ago
        FWIW not all ventilation is intubation, you can have non-invasive ventilation. Just in case you weren't aware, this makes stats hard to ascertain as some sources seemingly are interpreting orginal sources as if they were synonymous.
        jordanbeiber 7y ago
        Thanks. I was assuming the 80% death rate was intubated ventilation.
        ethbro 7y ago
        Confounding factor: obesity rates and comorbidities From a glance, the US averages 3x the incidence rate of obesity as Sweden. Obese patients with existing health problems will result in substantially worse outcomes from Covid-19.
amiga_500 7y ago
What about the BMI difference, being fat and having covid is higher risk.
- rsync 7y ago
  Obesity in the United States: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States "The obesity rate has steadily increased since the initial 1962 recording of 23%. By 2019, figures from the CDC found that more than one-third (36.5%) of U.S. adults[5] and 17% of children were obese.[6] A second study from the National Center for Health Statistics at the CDC showed that 39.6% of U.S. adults were obese as of 2015-2016 (37.9% for men and 41.1% for women).[7]"
shalmanese 7y ago
Sweden has reported 1,511 deaths and 13,822 cases. Does that mean 7,555 of the 13,822 cases have passed through the ICU or a significant number of people have died without entering the ICU?
- jordanbeiber 7y ago
  My wife runs a home for old people with dementia. A lot (100s) of deaths where old people have died of flu-like symptoms is counted as covid deaths. Teating has not been possible until just recently.
  - shalmanese 7y ago
    So couldn't it just be that New York is admitting many more sicker people into their ICUs vs Sweden's ICUs performing better?
    - jordanbeiber 7y ago
      ICU death rate percentage still would be relevant in terms of ICU effectiveness? Likely an ICU patient in Sweden is in really bad condition seeing we have something like 90 ICU spots on 2,4 million people in Stockholm.
    - IkmoIkmo 7y ago
      Can be lots of things, there's lots of evidence that data quality is extremely poor right now, but not enough to be able to say accurately what all the data should be. For example, in the Netherlands, in a blood test about 3% of the population was found to have antibodies, while the number of people confirmed to have corona via tests is at 0.15% of the population. We're looking at a 1:20 confirmed/actual rate. That tells you testing is way off, about 20x so. The total tests performed is roughly similar to the US by the way, about 1 in 100. Then there's death rates. The Netherlands currently saw 2 in 10.000 confirmed deaths from corona. This is about double the rate in the US. However if we look at excess deaths compared to a 3-year average for the same period (2017-2019) we see about triple the amount. Apparently 2 in 3 die of corona without it being tested or confirmed. (likely in nursing homes where mortality rates are often around 30% per year, and it's not uncommon for staff to find a patient died in their sleep for example). And the Netherlands is a small country with high-quality public infrastructure. It's quite likely that it is among the countries with the best record-keeping system, and is among the countries with the highest tests per population, and even here we see massive undercounting of infections and deaths. It's good to keep looking at the numbers, but only with a huge caveat. I'm actually completely flabbergasted that the media report on infection numbers without ANY mention of a confidence interval, standard deviation or some kind of uncertainty measurement, as well as some basic stats around testing methodologies, in particular when reporting cross-country comparisons. This should be the norm, but instead we just get country comparisons, world maps and graphs displaying wildly inaccurate and limited data (which is absolutely useful, but criminal to report without caveats). Apart from a mention about 'Chinese data isn't reliable' or 'India isn't testing much, so the problem may be far greater', there's really no consistent discussion about this. There's lots of standard statistical tools to express uncertainty which have been used in science for decades, but they're completely absent in our reporting or discussions at the moment.
ytNumbers 7y ago
I'd love to know where you got those statistics. I couldn't find anything on country mortality rates for COVID-19 ICU patients. However, since the US obesity rate is way higher than Sweden, it is surprising that the COVID-19 death rate in the US is around five percent, while it is around ten percent for Sweden. Of course, Sweden has decided not to impose a lockdown, so I have no idea how much that might be overwhelming their hosipitals. https://bnonews.com/index.php/2020/04/the-latest-coronavirus-cases/ https://bnonews.com/index.php/2020/04/the-latest-coronavirus...
- jordanbeiber 7y ago
  In swedish: https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/over-80-procent-overlever-intensivvarden https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/over-80-procent-overlever...

garmaine 7y ago

In ICU and on ventilation are not the same thing.

walshemj 7y ago
Exactly I have been in an ICU and I was on those annoying nasal oxygen and not itubated
- greedo 7y ago
  Trust me, having a canula is much more pleasant than intubation.
jordanbeiber 7y ago
No true that. Couldn’t find this data for us/ny. It seems like there’s been a high focus on ventilator supply so I was just guessing a lot of severe icu cases would be put on one. I have no idea, but would like to know.

watwut 7y ago

Obviously, not everyone in ICU is on ventilator. This is true in both countries. If there was dishonest statistical comparison, this is the one.

jordanbeiber 7y ago
It is a question though. I have no idea.
- watwut 7y ago
  That is not question. That is easy to figure out public information.
  - jordanbeiber 7y ago
    I’ve spent an honest 20 minutes looking for corona ICU survival statistics. It might be public, but not easy to google. In the UK it seems to be 50%.
    - watwut 7y ago
      The easy to find part is that not everyone in ICU is not attached to ventilator. Most people are not attached there.
      - jordanbeiber 7y ago
        The data out there indicate a 50% ICU death rate in general. Ventilators seem to exacerbate the condition for covid patients. Sweden seem to have better success with intensive care than average. Are we perhaps intubating less. Train of thought ^.
        pbhjpbhj 7y ago
        FWIW not all ventilation is intubation, you can have non-invasive ventilation. Just in case you weren't aware, this makes stats hard to ascertain as some sources seemingly are interpreting orginal sources as if they were synonymous.
        jordanbeiber 7y ago
        Thanks. I was assuming the 80% death rate was intubated ventilation.
        ethbro 7y ago
        Confounding factor: obesity rates and comorbidities From a glance, the US averages 3x the incidence rate of obesity as Sweden. Obese patients with existing health problems will result in substantially worse outcomes from Covid-19.

amiga_500 7y ago

What about the BMI difference, being fat and having covid is higher risk.

rsync 7y ago
Obesity in the United States: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States "The obesity rate has steadily increased since the initial 1962 recording of 23%. By 2019, figures from the CDC found that more than one-third (36.5%) of U.S. adults[5] and 17% of children were obese.[6] A second study from the National Center for Health Statistics at the CDC showed that 39.6% of U.S. adults were obese as of 2015-2016 (37.9% for men and 41.1% for women).[7]"

shalmanese 7y ago

Sweden has reported 1,511 deaths and 13,822 cases. Does that mean 7,555 of the 13,822 cases have passed through the ICU or a significant number of people have died without entering the ICU?

jordanbeiber 7y ago
My wife runs a home for old people with dementia. A lot (100s) of deaths where old people have died of flu-like symptoms is counted as covid deaths. Teating has not been possible until just recently.
- shalmanese 7y ago
  So couldn't it just be that New York is admitting many more sicker people into their ICUs vs Sweden's ICUs performing better?
  - jordanbeiber 7y ago
    ICU death rate percentage still would be relevant in terms of ICU effectiveness? Likely an ICU patient in Sweden is in really bad condition seeing we have something like 90 ICU spots on 2,4 million people in Stockholm.
  - IkmoIkmo 7y ago
    Can be lots of things, there's lots of evidence that data quality is extremely poor right now, but not enough to be able to say accurately what all the data should be. For example, in the Netherlands, in a blood test about 3% of the population was found to have antibodies, while the number of people confirmed to have corona via tests is at 0.15% of the population. We're looking at a 1:20 confirmed/actual rate. That tells you testing is way off, about 20x so. The total tests performed is roughly similar to the US by the way, about 1 in 100. Then there's death rates. The Netherlands currently saw 2 in 10.000 confirmed deaths from corona. This is about double the rate in the US. However if we look at excess deaths compared to a 3-year average for the same period (2017-2019) we see about triple the amount. Apparently 2 in 3 die of corona without it being tested or confirmed. (likely in nursing homes where mortality rates are often around 30% per year, and it's not uncommon for staff to find a patient died in their sleep for example). And the Netherlands is a small country with high-quality public infrastructure. It's quite likely that it is among the countries with the best record-keeping system, and is among the countries with the highest tests per population, and even here we see massive undercounting of infections and deaths. It's good to keep looking at the numbers, but only with a huge caveat. I'm actually completely flabbergasted that the media report on infection numbers without ANY mention of a confidence interval, standard deviation or some kind of uncertainty measurement, as well as some basic stats around testing methodologies, in particular when reporting cross-country comparisons. This should be the norm, but instead we just get country comparisons, world maps and graphs displaying wildly inaccurate and limited data (which is absolutely useful, but criminal to report without caveats). Apart from a mention about 'Chinese data isn't reliable' or 'India isn't testing much, so the problem may be far greater', there's really no consistent discussion about this. There's lots of standard statistical tools to express uncertainty which have been used in science for decades, but they're completely absent in our reporting or discussions at the moment.

ytNumbers 7y ago

I'd love to know where you got those statistics. I couldn't find anything on country mortality rates for COVID-19 ICU patients. However, since the US obesity rate is way higher than Sweden, it is surprising that the COVID-19 death rate in the US is around five percent, while it is around ten percent for Sweden. Of course, Sweden has decided not to impose a lockdown, so I have no idea how much that might be overwhelming their hosipitals. https://bnonews.com/index.php/2020/04/the-latest-coronavirus-cases/ https://bnonews.com/index.php/2020/04/the-latest-coronavirus...

jordanbeiber 7y ago
In swedish: https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/over-80-procent-overlever-intensivvarden https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/over-80-procent-overlever...