6 ms·

Having rarely seen a VCR that wasn't flashing "12:00", I came to the conclusion that a clock was simply feature bloat.

by rapind 7y ago

kristopolous 7y ago
One of the arguments, given in the Supreme Court, by Mr. Rogers, to permit the VCR to be legally owned (I know how crazy this is sounding but it's real) was to time shift programming ... which requires a functioning clock. Fred Rogers, 1984: "I have always felt that with the advent of all of this new technology that allows people to tape the 'Neighborhood' off-the-air ... they then become much more active in the programming of their family’s television life. Very frankly, I am opposed to people being programmed by others. My whole approach in broadcasting has always been ‘You are an important person just the way you are. You can make healthy decisions’ ... I just feel that anything that allows a person to be more active in the control of his or her life, in a healthy way, is important." see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._of_America_v._Universal_City_Studios,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._of_America_v._Unive.... There's definitely non-crazy ways of doing this ... but it requires what at first blush, would appear to be a complicated interface.
- aspenmayer 7y ago
  Just when I thought I couldn’t be thankful enough to Fred Rogers for saving public television in America as he transformed what it could be, now I find out that he’s also pivotal in standing up for fair use rights and inadvertently supported the analog hole before the digital one was even invented to be closed. He truly was a person who stood up for his beliefs on behalf of the fellow person and an example of goodness in the world without pandering or compromise. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_hole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_hole
- gowld 7y ago
  Time shifting doesn't require a clock, if you are home to start recording, but a clock helps with programmatic recording.
  - lmm 7y ago
    That's an extreme nitpick. The whole argument for time shifting is to be able to record something while you're not at home.
    - aspenmayer 7y ago
      Let’s hear them out in the spirit of debate. I’m curious how this hypothetical VCR is programmed, what the remote and interface might look like. I might even like it, or at least want parts of it as concepts to integrate with other things that already exist. Could shake loose some ideas. Honestly I don’t know why VCRs are so hard to program but all of the buttons can’t help. I might be getting old but the Roku remote seems about right as far as complexity in the device goes and I can see how a nice interface with relative timekeeping could do what you need without a clock per se. Inertial guidance for timekeeping? A self winding DVR?
      - Fr0styMatt88 7y ago
        I remember what setting the time on a VCR was like and it's interesting to think of all the assumed knowledge you actually need in order to have it seem intuitive. Two things off the top of my head that I can think of: 1) knowing that a blinking number is indicating some kind of selection and more generally 2) seeing the UI as a glimpse into a larger abstract space that can be navigated. Or in other words, having used computers for many years, what my parents sawzl as just a blinking word, I would see as a menu where up/down/left/right had meaning. There's also some more abstract thinking involved there - for me it's very spatial so I think of it as being able to keep track of your place in this 'abstract map'. You had to learn some non-obvious things like "if the down button stops working, it probably means I'm at the 'bottom' of my available choices" or "if I start seeing the same choices again, it means I have 'wrapped around' and in a logical sense I'm back to where I've been before". I actually remember thinking something like this as a child when we got a VCR. I think I remember that realization that "this is a menu I can explore". The exploratory skills you pick up when you have to figure out how to use something technical generalize really well to other technical things. TL;DR: I think VCRs were hard to program because the limited UI of buttons and a tiny screen meant that you actually needed a fairly built-up mental model of the process to keep track of what you were doing.
- hilbert42 7y ago
  "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._of_America_v._Universal_City_Studios,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._of_America_v._Unive.... " Ha, reading that link now one feels a delicious sense of irony. Imagine how Sony would react today seeing that it has become one of the biggest purveyors of video/movie content. ;-)
Noos 7y ago
Not really, that's more a cliche. I set the clock on mine to tape programming when I wasn't there, and if anything it was probably easier than setting clock radios and watches now.
- Talanes 7y ago
  I was a child during the heyday of VCR, but I don't think any of my family was aware of timed recording. The whole concept just didn't exist in our lives until Tivo. Non-obvious features plus buying things second hand just meant you never learned everything your stuff did back before you could find manuals online.
  - Symbiote 7y ago
    My family could afford most things new, we had the manuals. I think my parents read them too, as they knew how to use the timed recording feature. My grandma knew how to use hers! Many people would keep the manuals near the TV, so they could remind themselves how to use the rarely used features. The Panasonic VCR we had included a barcode reader in the remote. The printed TV guide has barcodes for each program. This interface was very easy to use -- scan, and press "transmit". Edit to add a link to an advert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSGUbE1v5RA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSGUbE1v5RA -- the sheet of timecodes was necessary if you didn't have a TV guide with them printed, as shown here: http://www.champagnecomedy.com/panasonic-barcodes-saving-your-saturdays/ http://www.champagnecomedy.com/panasonic-barcodes-saving-you...
  - hilbert42 7y ago
    "Non-obvious features plus buying things second hand just meant you never learned everything your stuff did back before you could find manuals online." That's the outrageous point. You shouldn't need manuals for operation of ordinary domestic appliances! If you do then you automatically know its design is substandard! (The only reason you should need a manual is for some info or maintenance function that's not normally associated with its user-operated functions.)
- tunap 7y ago
  I think of programming the Betamax(VHS rival) everytime I scrolled through the interface on 1990s/2000s printers. I built the nested file structure in my head rather than reading it on the screen. It has made navigating the digital world so much more natural(for me). *The hard part of programming the Beta(and early VHS) for me was getting the family to leave the tuner on the channel I/we wanted to record.
pfranz 7y ago
If they couldn't make it easier to set I think the clock should have been less prominent. It's necessary if you're doing a scheduled recording. It's too bad time sync over power lines didn't catch on widely (or broadcast over the radio). It would still be saving everyone from changing their digital clocks during DST.
- XorNot 7y ago
  The problem was everyone did it once, and then lost power at some point and it went into "minor task not ever important enough to be worth taking the time. If they'd included a backup battery to retain the clock, I suspect it'd been less of a thing.
  - Talanes 7y ago
    In the days before power strips were ubiquitous, my VCR got unplugged whenever I played the Sega. There was no way anyone was setting the clock daily.
  - pfranz 7y ago
    I still think that's part of the bad UI =) That setup was bad unless you included a battery or time was likely to set itself.
- kristopolous 7y ago
  Time codes inside of analog terrestrial NTSC sounds really easy and obvious. Given that nobody did it, it would appear that even though legally people like Mr. Rogers were making the case for time-shift programming, the industry must have assumed it was a minor use case.
  - Jtsummers 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Data_Services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Data_Services Autoclock setting was done for VCRs. It just happened much later than the case in question.
  - 7y ago
RandomBacon 7y ago
Speaking of feature bloat... I hate that ovens and microwaves have clocks on them. I don't need two devices in my kitchen to tell time. It's ridiculous since they usually next to each other, and most of the time have different displays. Just because there is an LCD/whatever, doesn't mean it always has to display something! At least on the latest power outage, my microwave stopped showing the time. The oven still flashed, so I set that time and only have one clock in my kitchen now. Even my vehicle has two clocks in it, one on the instrument cluster and one on the infotainment system. So stupid!!!
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  > The oven still flashed, What's even more crazy, increasingly often I've started to encounter ovens that don't work until you set the clock. I.e. if the clock was reset and is blinking, the heater won't turn on. Took me a while to figure it out the first time I saw it.
- 1123581321 7y ago
  A lot of ovens have a delayed bake feature that uses the time. I’ve never seen a microwave with that feature, though, and it’s also the less essential device.

Having rarely seen a VCR that wasn't flashing "12:00", I came to the conclusion that a clock was simply feature bloat.

by rapind 7y ago

Having rarely seen a VCR that wasn't flashing "12:00", I came to the conclusion that a clock was simply feature bloat.

One of the arguments, given in the Supreme Court, by Mr. Rogers, to permit the VCR to be legally owned (I know how crazy this is sounding but it's real) was to time shift programming ... which requires a functioning clock. Fred Rogers, 1984: "I have always felt that with the advent of all of this new technology that allows people to tape the 'Neighborhood' off-the-air ... they then become much more active in the programming of their family’s television life. Very frankly, I am opposed to people being programmed by others. My whole approach in broadcasting has always been ‘You are an important person just the way you are. You can make healthy decisions’ ... I just feel that anything that allows a person to be more active in the control of his or her life, in a healthy way, is important." see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._of_America_v._Universal_City_Studios,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._of_America_v._Unive.... There's definitely non-crazy ways of doing this ... but it requires what at first blush, would appear to be a complicated interface.

aspenmayer 7y ago
Just when I thought I couldn’t be thankful enough to Fred Rogers for saving public television in America as he transformed what it could be, now I find out that he’s also pivotal in standing up for fair use rights and inadvertently supported the analog hole before the digital one was even invented to be closed. He truly was a person who stood up for his beliefs on behalf of the fellow person and an example of goodness in the world without pandering or compromise. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_hole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_hole
gowld 7y ago
Time shifting doesn't require a clock, if you are home to start recording, but a clock helps with programmatic recording.
- lmm 7y ago
  That's an extreme nitpick. The whole argument for time shifting is to be able to record something while you're not at home.
  - aspenmayer 7y ago
    Let’s hear them out in the spirit of debate. I’m curious how this hypothetical VCR is programmed, what the remote and interface might look like. I might even like it, or at least want parts of it as concepts to integrate with other things that already exist. Could shake loose some ideas. Honestly I don’t know why VCRs are so hard to program but all of the buttons can’t help. I might be getting old but the Roku remote seems about right as far as complexity in the device goes and I can see how a nice interface with relative timekeeping could do what you need without a clock per se. Inertial guidance for timekeeping? A self winding DVR?
    - Fr0styMatt88 7y ago
      I remember what setting the time on a VCR was like and it's interesting to think of all the assumed knowledge you actually need in order to have it seem intuitive. Two things off the top of my head that I can think of: 1) knowing that a blinking number is indicating some kind of selection and more generally 2) seeing the UI as a glimpse into a larger abstract space that can be navigated. Or in other words, having used computers for many years, what my parents sawzl as just a blinking word, I would see as a menu where up/down/left/right had meaning. There's also some more abstract thinking involved there - for me it's very spatial so I think of it as being able to keep track of your place in this 'abstract map'. You had to learn some non-obvious things like "if the down button stops working, it probably means I'm at the 'bottom' of my available choices" or "if I start seeing the same choices again, it means I have 'wrapped around' and in a logical sense I'm back to where I've been before". I actually remember thinking something like this as a child when we got a VCR. I think I remember that realization that "this is a menu I can explore". The exploratory skills you pick up when you have to figure out how to use something technical generalize really well to other technical things. TL;DR: I think VCRs were hard to program because the limited UI of buttons and a tiny screen meant that you actually needed a fairly built-up mental model of the process to keep track of what you were doing.
hilbert42 7y ago
"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._of_America_v._Universal_City_Studios,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._of_America_v._Unive.... " Ha, reading that link now one feels a delicious sense of irony. Imagine how Sony would react today seeing that it has become one of the biggest purveyors of video/movie content. ;-)

Noos 7y ago

Not really, that's more a cliche. I set the clock on mine to tape programming when I wasn't there, and if anything it was probably easier than setting clock radios and watches now.

Talanes 7y ago
I was a child during the heyday of VCR, but I don't think any of my family was aware of timed recording. The whole concept just didn't exist in our lives until Tivo. Non-obvious features plus buying things second hand just meant you never learned everything your stuff did back before you could find manuals online.
- Symbiote 7y ago
  My family could afford most things new, we had the manuals. I think my parents read them too, as they knew how to use the timed recording feature. My grandma knew how to use hers! Many people would keep the manuals near the TV, so they could remind themselves how to use the rarely used features. The Panasonic VCR we had included a barcode reader in the remote. The printed TV guide has barcodes for each program. This interface was very easy to use -- scan, and press "transmit". Edit to add a link to an advert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSGUbE1v5RA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSGUbE1v5RA -- the sheet of timecodes was necessary if you didn't have a TV guide with them printed, as shown here: http://www.champagnecomedy.com/panasonic-barcodes-saving-your-saturdays/ http://www.champagnecomedy.com/panasonic-barcodes-saving-you...
- hilbert42 7y ago
  "Non-obvious features plus buying things second hand just meant you never learned everything your stuff did back before you could find manuals online." That's the outrageous point. You shouldn't need manuals for operation of ordinary domestic appliances! If you do then you automatically know its design is substandard! (The only reason you should need a manual is for some info or maintenance function that's not normally associated with its user-operated functions.)
tunap 7y ago
I think of programming the Betamax(VHS rival) everytime I scrolled through the interface on 1990s/2000s printers. I built the nested file structure in my head rather than reading it on the screen. It has made navigating the digital world so much more natural(for me). *The hard part of programming the Beta(and early VHS) for me was getting the family to leave the tuner on the channel I/we wanted to record.

pfranz 7y ago

If they couldn't make it easier to set I think the clock should have been less prominent. It's necessary if you're doing a scheduled recording. It's too bad time sync over power lines didn't catch on widely (or broadcast over the radio). It would still be saving everyone from changing their digital clocks during DST.

XorNot 7y ago
The problem was everyone did it once, and then lost power at some point and it went into "minor task not ever important enough to be worth taking the time. If they'd included a backup battery to retain the clock, I suspect it'd been less of a thing.
- Talanes 7y ago
  In the days before power strips were ubiquitous, my VCR got unplugged whenever I played the Sega. There was no way anyone was setting the clock daily.
- pfranz 7y ago
  I still think that's part of the bad UI =) That setup was bad unless you included a battery or time was likely to set itself.
kristopolous 7y ago
Time codes inside of analog terrestrial NTSC sounds really easy and obvious. Given that nobody did it, it would appear that even though legally people like Mr. Rogers were making the case for time-shift programming, the industry must have assumed it was a minor use case.
- Jtsummers 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Data_Services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Data_Services Autoclock setting was done for VCRs. It just happened much later than the case in question.
- 7y ago

RandomBacon 7y ago

Speaking of feature bloat... I hate that ovens and microwaves have clocks on them. I don't need two devices in my kitchen to tell time. It's ridiculous since they usually next to each other, and most of the time have different displays. Just because there is an LCD/whatever, doesn't mean it always has to display something! At least on the latest power outage, my microwave stopped showing the time. The oven still flashed, so I set that time and only have one clock in my kitchen now. Even my vehicle has two clocks in it, one on the instrument cluster and one on the infotainment system. So stupid!!!

TeMPOraL 7y ago
> The oven still flashed, What's even more crazy, increasingly often I've started to encounter ovens that don't work until you set the clock. I.e. if the clock was reset and is blinking, the heater won't turn on. Took me a while to figure it out the first time I saw it.
1123581321 7y ago
A lot of ovens have a delayed bake feature that uses the time. I’ve never seen a microwave with that feature, though, and it’s also the less essential device.