6 ms·

This describes a lot of software. No doubt. It's depressing and disturbing. But not any of the systems I've worked on over 10 years. You may not get the absolu

This describes a lot of software. No doubt. It's depressing and disturbing. But not any of the systems I've worked on over 10 years. You may not get the absolute top salaries working on more meaningful projects, but there's plenty of them. Here are some examples that I worked on. To a fault, most of these places over-focused on the business and under-focused on exceptional engineering. Nonetheless, there's a lot of money to be made solving real business problems. - Optometry practice management software - Insurance benefits processing and customer service systems - Professional soccer/football training iPad apps - phone/pbx, Audio and video communcations, tie in with the web - mapping systems to evaluate water scarcity and agriculture water use - government benefits systems Again, user Nextgrid isn't wrong. If you're willing to take say, up to 90% of the highest salaries available, rather than only the top 10% of salaries, there are huge amounts of non-advertisement problems to solve. Rightfully, this comment exposes the depressing cynicism which develops when building manipulative software.

Nextgrid 7y ago
Curious, how do you get jobs/contracts around these examples? My understanding is that most of these industries already have the talent they need (or have a preferred supplier they work with).
- __s 7y ago
  You apply. Talent is always wanting
- sopooneo 7y ago
  I freelanced for a few months for a local high-end cabinet maker. I helped them integrate their online ordering system with the automated fabrication equipment. It was, by far the most I have ever enjoyed programming. Coordinating with super skilled crafts-people to help them eliminate the redundant parts of their work was just so cool. And by weird coincidence to this post I've recently been browsing around trying to find any other type of traditional businesses looking for equivalent help. But I've mostly found boutique places that wouldn't have need for a full-time developer. Any tips on places to look for opening greatly appreciated.
  - Nextgrid 7y ago
    I had a similar gig where a small local business wanted to integrate their Shopify store into their existing Django app. It was very easy and no BS to deal with like Kubernetes or Javascript build pipelines. The problem is that I find it very hard to find these businesses, and indeed most of them don't actually have enough work to fill more than a couple of days so you would need a reliable source of these gigs if you want to survive (you can't charge insane amounts to compensate either as these businesses just can't afford it).
  - jackcosgrove 7y ago
    That type of work is too infrequent for most companies to justify hiring a dedicated developer. You should work for a system integrator if you want to do that kind of work with regularity. The integrator contracts you out to those companies as needed, and you develop a niche and maybe customers start asking for you by name. In the best cases the integrator is your employer and offers full benefits, as well as absorbing the costs of downtime. That business model can also be abusive for obvious reasons. I can recommend a good company if you're interested.
apohn 7y ago
So this is a philosophical argument, but lots of those industries indirectly screw their customers. Optometrists who sell frames generally sell brands from companies like Luxottica who have made eyewear really expensive. The entire insurance industry is one of the major reasons healthcare is expensive and ruins the experience people have with patient care. All of this various from country to country of course. I could go on, but sometimes your choice is working on a product that either screws the users directly (e.g. ads) or indirectly. Take your pick of where you want to draw the line.
- ativzzz 7y ago
  By this logic, every company screws over everyone and business is bad overall.
  - ves 7y ago
    That’s an unfair conclusion. Those examples were pretty specific and I, at least, see no reason to generalize (except maybe the insurance one), except perhaps along the lines of “serving exploitative monopolies is bad”
    - Stefan-H 7y ago
      In fairness, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. If you take that to its logical conclusion, then there is no ethical software development that supports capitalist endeavors.
    - ativzzz 7y ago
      What I meant is that you can find an example in nearly every business of some person (or group of people) getting "screwed over", which is of course subjective. So subjectively, you could make the case that every business is "exploitative" (like the other replier who claims every capitalistic business is exploitative).
  - apohn 7y ago
    If you take what I said to the logical extreme then sure. What I was trying to say was that it's very black and white thinking to say something like ads = exploiting users and healthcare = not exploiting users. Since Facebook usually comes up when people talk about unethical companies, let me use them as an example. Let's say there is a team that improves ad targeting by 5%, helping to reduce the number of irrelevant ads people see. Let's say there's another team that reduces data center electricity's utilization by 5%, which helps the environment. Is the ad team more or less ethical than the data center team if they are basically both supporting the same end goal? I don't work for Facebook if that matters. And I have no answers to any of the questions I posed above outside of my personal preference to not work in online advertising unless I need to do it to survive.
austincheney 7y ago
In most all the systems I have worked on its more about screwing the user from a technical perspective than a deliberate business action, though there have been some of those too. Either way it all comes down to some combination of mental laziness and no ethics. There is no ethical code, that I am aware of, for writing software. Here are my experiences as a web developer: * Frustration at the general technical incompetence of my industry: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22821318 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22821318 * Many software developers need things to be easy, unprofessionally so: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22859326 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22859326 * JavaScript developers can't interface to the browser: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22740897 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22740897 * People (only software developers on security) who self-admittedly have no education, no experience, no credibility, and no practice of the art find themselves subject matter experts and cannot understand why an actual expert would disagree with their hastily formed opinion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22868620 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22868620 * Hiring software developers is still somehow an arcane mystery few people can objectively figure out.
- nradov 7y ago
  IEEE Code of Ethics: https://www.ieee.org/about/corporate/governance/p7-8.html https://www.ieee.org/about/corporate/governance/p7-8.html ACM Code of Ethics: https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics There are incompetent people in every industry. So what. Hiring is an arcane mystery in every industry where productivity can't be quantified. So what.
  - austincheney 7y ago
    Those are nice. Thanks for sharing that! I have never seen anything remotely close to that in a place of corporate employment ever. I have been doing this in the corporate world since 2006, but if you count my time as a security analyst in the military than I could push that date back to 2001. The military does force feed you (memorization verbatim) ethical standards, though, at a huge contrast to the loosey goosey corporate world: * https://www.army.mil/values/nco.html https://www.army.mil/values/nco.html * https://www.army.mil/values/ https://www.army.mil/values/
danpalmer 7y ago
You've done well to stick with these things, and I do agree with your point, but I think almost any company can fall afoul of these practices... - Optometry practice management software... targeted at maximising in-store sales with prescriptions that are difficult to use elsewhere, encouraging dark-patterns in sales tactics, etc. - Insurance benefits processing and customer service systems... that attempts to minimise payouts, potentially by adding burden on the customer through the customer service process. - Professional soccer/football training iPad apps... arguably sports doesn't bring as much benefit to the economy as equivalent spending elsewhere. - phone/pbx, Audio and video communcations, tie in with the web... for premium rate phone lines that users with little choice are forced to use, such as those installed in prisons in the US. - mapping systems to evaluate water scarcity and agriculture water use... for Monsanto. - government benefits systems... that optimises to minimise payouts or contains unnecessary checks and hurdles.
- ruffrey 7y ago
  These are great points. I'm reminded of a comedy TV show, The Good Place, where it turns out nobody has gone to "heaven - the good place" for a long time because there are too many unintended consequences of a person's actions. Buy an organic bamboo T-shirt? The company dumped waste into river. Vegan? You produced a bunch of single plastic plastic packaging. It highlight the need to be diligent in daily decisions day-by-day. And when working somewhere that's doing something borderline, or totally unethical, working to move it in the right direction. I hope I can be aware enough to create a net benefit. The problem is knowing enough of the consequences of any action to evaluate if it's a net benefit. That's really hard, but I have to believe that toiling away _trying_ to make net positives happen will _actually_ result in net positives happening. Doubting I could ever make net positives happen leads to cynicism and ensures nothing good will come of my work. (and thank you for bringing up point about benefit systems - that's the next gig for me, I will work to not be part of the problem)
  - danpalmer 7y ago
    Nice one. Just think about the user/consumer in any of these things. Does the thing I'm building help them, or only help the company I'm working for? Be pragmatic. If the company provides a good service but doesn't survive, then that good service no longer exists! Some amount of optimisation for sales is likely necessary, but I think there's a line where things turn user-hostile, even in subtle ways.
silveroriole 7y ago
“Up to 90% of the highest salaries available”? I’ve worked on one of these and you’re more likely to get 60-70% of what you could otherwise be earning in some mediocre fintech company, let alone top salaries. Which is a much harder sell for most people.

Nextgrid 7y ago

Curious, how do you get jobs/contracts around these examples? My understanding is that most of these industries already have the talent they need (or have a preferred supplier they work with).

__s 7y ago
You apply. Talent is always wanting
sopooneo 7y ago
I freelanced for a few months for a local high-end cabinet maker. I helped them integrate their online ordering system with the automated fabrication equipment. It was, by far the most I have ever enjoyed programming. Coordinating with super skilled crafts-people to help them eliminate the redundant parts of their work was just so cool. And by weird coincidence to this post I've recently been browsing around trying to find any other type of traditional businesses looking for equivalent help. But I've mostly found boutique places that wouldn't have need for a full-time developer. Any tips on places to look for opening greatly appreciated.
- Nextgrid 7y ago
  I had a similar gig where a small local business wanted to integrate their Shopify store into their existing Django app. It was very easy and no BS to deal with like Kubernetes or Javascript build pipelines. The problem is that I find it very hard to find these businesses, and indeed most of them don't actually have enough work to fill more than a couple of days so you would need a reliable source of these gigs if you want to survive (you can't charge insane amounts to compensate either as these businesses just can't afford it).
- jackcosgrove 7y ago
  That type of work is too infrequent for most companies to justify hiring a dedicated developer. You should work for a system integrator if you want to do that kind of work with regularity. The integrator contracts you out to those companies as needed, and you develop a niche and maybe customers start asking for you by name. In the best cases the integrator is your employer and offers full benefits, as well as absorbing the costs of downtime. That business model can also be abusive for obvious reasons. I can recommend a good company if you're interested.

apohn 7y ago

So this is a philosophical argument, but lots of those industries indirectly screw their customers. Optometrists who sell frames generally sell brands from companies like Luxottica who have made eyewear really expensive. The entire insurance industry is one of the major reasons healthcare is expensive and ruins the experience people have with patient care. All of this various from country to country of course. I could go on, but sometimes your choice is working on a product that either screws the users directly (e.g. ads) or indirectly. Take your pick of where you want to draw the line.

ativzzz 7y ago
By this logic, every company screws over everyone and business is bad overall.
- ves 7y ago
  That’s an unfair conclusion. Those examples were pretty specific and I, at least, see no reason to generalize (except maybe the insurance one), except perhaps along the lines of “serving exploitative monopolies is bad”
  - Stefan-H 7y ago
    In fairness, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. If you take that to its logical conclusion, then there is no ethical software development that supports capitalist endeavors.
  - ativzzz 7y ago
    What I meant is that you can find an example in nearly every business of some person (or group of people) getting "screwed over", which is of course subjective. So subjectively, you could make the case that every business is "exploitative" (like the other replier who claims every capitalistic business is exploitative).
- apohn 7y ago
  If you take what I said to the logical extreme then sure. What I was trying to say was that it's very black and white thinking to say something like ads = exploiting users and healthcare = not exploiting users. Since Facebook usually comes up when people talk about unethical companies, let me use them as an example. Let's say there is a team that improves ad targeting by 5%, helping to reduce the number of irrelevant ads people see. Let's say there's another team that reduces data center electricity's utilization by 5%, which helps the environment. Is the ad team more or less ethical than the data center team if they are basically both supporting the same end goal? I don't work for Facebook if that matters. And I have no answers to any of the questions I posed above outside of my personal preference to not work in online advertising unless I need to do it to survive.

austincheney 7y ago

In most all the systems I have worked on its more about screwing the user from a technical perspective than a deliberate business action, though there have been some of those too. Either way it all comes down to some combination of mental laziness and no ethics. There is no ethical code, that I am aware of, for writing software. Here are my experiences as a web developer: * Frustration at the general technical incompetence of my industry: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22821318 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22821318 * Many software developers need things to be easy, unprofessionally so: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22859326 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22859326 * JavaScript developers can't interface to the browser: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22740897 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22740897 * People (only software developers on security) who self-admittedly have no education, no experience, no credibility, and no practice of the art find themselves subject matter experts and cannot understand why an actual expert would disagree with their hastily formed opinion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22868620 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22868620 * Hiring software developers is still somehow an arcane mystery few people can objectively figure out.

nradov 7y ago
IEEE Code of Ethics: https://www.ieee.org/about/corporate/governance/p7-8.html https://www.ieee.org/about/corporate/governance/p7-8.html ACM Code of Ethics: https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics There are incompetent people in every industry. So what. Hiring is an arcane mystery in every industry where productivity can't be quantified. So what.
- austincheney 7y ago
  Those are nice. Thanks for sharing that! I have never seen anything remotely close to that in a place of corporate employment ever. I have been doing this in the corporate world since 2006, but if you count my time as a security analyst in the military than I could push that date back to 2001. The military does force feed you (memorization verbatim) ethical standards, though, at a huge contrast to the loosey goosey corporate world: * https://www.army.mil/values/nco.html https://www.army.mil/values/nco.html * https://www.army.mil/values/ https://www.army.mil/values/

danpalmer 7y ago

You've done well to stick with these things, and I do agree with your point, but I think almost any company can fall afoul of these practices... - Optometry practice management software... targeted at maximising in-store sales with prescriptions that are difficult to use elsewhere, encouraging dark-patterns in sales tactics, etc. - Insurance benefits processing and customer service systems... that attempts to minimise payouts, potentially by adding burden on the customer through the customer service process. - Professional soccer/football training iPad apps... arguably sports doesn't bring as much benefit to the economy as equivalent spending elsewhere. - phone/pbx, Audio and video communcations, tie in with the web... for premium rate phone lines that users with little choice are forced to use, such as those installed in prisons in the US. - mapping systems to evaluate water scarcity and agriculture water use... for Monsanto. - government benefits systems... that optimises to minimise payouts or contains unnecessary checks and hurdles.

ruffrey 7y ago
These are great points. I'm reminded of a comedy TV show, The Good Place, where it turns out nobody has gone to "heaven - the good place" for a long time because there are too many unintended consequences of a person's actions. Buy an organic bamboo T-shirt? The company dumped waste into river. Vegan? You produced a bunch of single plastic plastic packaging. It highlight the need to be diligent in daily decisions day-by-day. And when working somewhere that's doing something borderline, or totally unethical, working to move it in the right direction. I hope I can be aware enough to create a net benefit. The problem is knowing enough of the consequences of any action to evaluate if it's a net benefit. That's really hard, but I have to believe that toiling away _trying_ to make net positives happen will _actually_ result in net positives happening. Doubting I could ever make net positives happen leads to cynicism and ensures nothing good will come of my work. (and thank you for bringing up point about benefit systems - that's the next gig for me, I will work to not be part of the problem)
- danpalmer 7y ago
  Nice one. Just think about the user/consumer in any of these things. Does the thing I'm building help them, or only help the company I'm working for? Be pragmatic. If the company provides a good service but doesn't survive, then that good service no longer exists! Some amount of optimisation for sales is likely necessary, but I think there's a line where things turn user-hostile, even in subtle ways.

silveroriole 7y ago

“Up to 90% of the highest salaries available”? I’ve worked on one of these and you’re more likely to get 60-70% of what you could otherwise be earning in some mediocre fintech company, let alone top salaries. Which is a much harder sell for most people.