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I’m glad that this is not happening in my country. Banning Amazon from selling nonessential items seems detrimental to society. The “nonessential items” that Am

by lacker 7y ago

I’m glad that this is not happening in my country. Banning Amazon from selling nonessential items seems detrimental to society. The “nonessential items” that Amazon sells are still pretty important for living my life. I’m sure there are some ways that worker health could be protected better, but at this point I wouldn’t trust the French government to make intelligent judgments on behalf of public health.

Darkstryder 7y ago
As most democratic countries, France has a complete separation between the government and the justice system. This is a justice decision. The government has nothing to do with it.
- ensignavenger 7y ago
  Not sure where the above poster is from, but some parts of the world use a different definition for "government" than other parts of the world. In the USA, for example, all three separate branches of "government" (Legislature, Executive, and Judicial) are considered "the government".
  - Darkstryder 7y ago
    I'm French. In french "gouvernement" (french word for "government") only refers to the executive branch, and our justice system is strongly attached to its independence from the two other branches. So it seems strange to me to conflate all three branches together. Interestingly, in the French wikipedia page for "gouvernement" [1], there is this paragraph : Différence avec le terme anglais En anglais, le mot « government » s'applique non seulement au gouvernement au sens où on l'entend en français, mais aussi aux collectivités territoriales et aux administrations publiques, aussi bien centrales que locales. Le concept le plus proche en français est donc celui de collectivité publique, qui englobe les institutions politiques qui incarnent directement les pouvoirs législatif, exécutif et judiciaire, ainsi que l'ensemble des administrations qui leur sont rattachées. Which can be loosely translated as : Difference with the english term In English, the word "government" includes not only the executive governement like in French, but also all local and global public administrations. The closest concept in french is therefore "collectivité publique" which encompasses institutions for all Legislative, Executive, Judiciary powers, as well as all administrations under their authorities. I learnt something new today. [1] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gouvernement https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gouvernement
    - umanwizard 7y ago
      IMO, the closest French term to the American English term "government" is État.
    - mikeg8 7y ago
      Thanks for sharing. I learned something too. What’s interesting to me is that, at least in America, we associate the judicial as government because we consider ourselves a “land of law” and the judicial has the responsibility of determining if the laws that “govern” how we can act have been used appropriately or if they violate our constitutional rights. As a French citizen, do you not feel governed by the laws which your courts oversee? Maybe this is purely a difference in language but it’s very fascinating to me.
      - umanwizard 7y ago
        I'm American too (and not the French person you were responding to). IMO it's just an accidental quirk of language. Laws are just as important in other developed nations too.
      - Darkstryder 7y ago
        I would have trouble talking about the difference between American and French views of the law, or even speaking for all French people for that matter. What I can say is that personally, I definitely think I live in a country ruled by law. However separation of powers means there is no single entity exercising total control on this law: the executive branch proposes changes to the law, the legislative ratifies these changes (or not), and the judiciary branch is an arbiter of what happens when the existing law meets real life situations. While the limits between the executive and legislative branches can sometimes feel porous (especially when executive and legislative are controlled by a single political party, as is the case in both France and USA at the moment), the judiciary branch always felt more insular to me from the two others, at least in my country. Another linguistic nuance to think about: in French, we are "ruled by law " but not "governed by law". In French, "gouverner" (to govern) is something that people do, not laws. This is a bit of a brain dump, sorry. I wish I would have more definitive answers for you.
- syshum 7y ago
  Most people consider the legal system (i refuse to call any state run court a justice system) part of the government, it is the enforcement arm of the government Executive, Legislative, Judicial, are the 3 general area's of a functioning government
  - umanwizard 7y ago
    Dividing state organs into those particular three "branches of government" is, as far as I can tell, specific to US culture. Other countries divide things up in different ways. Most modern democracies do have an elected legislature, a legal system, an executive authority (whether it be an elected president or a parliamentary-style cabinet), and a career civil service (i.e., what in the US would just be called non-political-appointees in the Executive Branch), but the terms they use for these can differ, as can the exact nature of the separation of powers between them.
    - syshum 7y ago
      So you dismiss my assertion, then proceed to prove my point All modern functioning governments have the same 3 basic struture These are all part of the government. My point says nothing about how the separation of powers between those government branches function, just that they exist and are all "government" I am not sure how anyone can claim the court system of a nation is not part of "the government" which was the comment I replied to
      - umanwizard 7y ago
        > I am not sure how anyone can claim the court system of a nation is not part of "the government" Different countries have different words for things. It’s as simple as that. What we call “soccer” in the US is called “football” in the UK. It doesn’t mean they’re two different things.
- umanwizard 7y ago
  In American English (notably distinct in this respect from British English), the term "government" means all state organs; for example, we would consider the Supreme Court to be part of the Federal Government. So the term includes what would in many other countries be called the government, the parliament, the civil service, the judiciary, etc.
brosinante 7y ago
Can't live without my one day delivery for sure, amazon workers will just have to deal with the virus, right?
013a 7y ago
I agree. There are a ton of goods in the world one might initially think are non-essential, but become essential in the right circumstances (think: batteries, computer cables, tape, etc). There are many goods which would easily classify as "essential" under a court order, despite not being essential (think: oreos, mountain dew, doritos, etc). This distinction cannot be legislated. Amazon is absolutely in the right to shut down for a bit while they try to figure it out. They're also absolutely in the wrong for the way they've treated their employees over the past month. Both of these can be true! Its like everyone in this thread needs to pick a side, and the other side is crazy for thinking the way they do.
josefx 7y ago
Amazon isn't the only provider of these non essential goods and most others are now probably thinking twice about flaunting the currently stringent worker safety regulations.
clarry 7y ago
> Banning Amazon from selling nonessential items seems detrimental to society. My hot take: having companies, that are so large that banning them is detrimental to society, is detrimental to society and extremely dangerous. We should never give so much power to one corporation. It should always be possible to reject a company.
- missedthecue 7y ago
  Are you saying that all forms of concentrated power are bad, or that the only good kind of concentrated power is the kind that owns all the weapons?
  - nordsieck 7y ago
    > Are you saying that all forms of concentrated power are bad, or that the only good kind of concentrated power is the kind that owns all the weapons? I think the claim is that democracy means "the people" are in charge in some sense. Of course, it's always been my experience that Starbucks has much better customer service than the DMV, so I'm not sure exactly how much that matters; it's not just that the people are nicer - the company actually cares somewhat about my opinions.
    - krapp 7y ago
      Don't mistake the facade of customer courtesy for actual leverage or an equal power dynamic. Starbucks doesn't care at all about your opinions. You actually likely have more influence over the running of your own local government than your local franchise coffee shop.
      - nordsieck 7y ago
        > Starbucks doesn't care at all about your opinions. My opinions that Starbucks doesn't care about: * How much foreign aid the US should send to Liberia * Which model of surfboard is best * Contract negotiations at the local school district My opinions that Starbucks cares a lot about: * How much I like their coffee in comparison to other coffee I drink * How the purchase process went * How much I like spending time in their store Starbucks cares very much about my opinions when it matters to them. Whereas government, local or otherwise, couldn't care less about me. > You actually likely have more influence over the running of your own local government than your local franchise coffee shop. Clearly you haven't had to deal with an HOA, much less local government.
benhurmarcel 7y ago
Amazon isn't prohibited to ship "non-essential" items there. But they are forced to do it while adequately protecting their workers.
- losvedir 7y ago
  Are you sure? The article is pretty explicit about them being banned from shipping "non-essential" goods there. It says they're ordered to do that AND protect their workers.
  - benhurmarcel 7y ago
    French news is pretty clear on that. https://www.capital.fr/entreprises-marches/la-justice-demande-a-amazon-de-limiter-son-activite-1367425 https://www.capital.fr/entreprises-marches/la-justice-demand... > stop the delivery of non-essential products until is put in place an evaluation of the risks and measures necessary to protect the employees health https://www.capital.fr/entreprises-marches/amazon-va-fermer-ses-entrepots-francais-pendant-une-semaine-1367476 https://www.capital.fr/entreprises-marches/amazon-va-fermer-... > order the online shop to limit itself to sell "essential products" (food, hygiene or medical) as long as the sanitary risks of the activity in the warehouse haven't been evaluated Edit: better source https://www.lesechos.fr/economie-france/social/coronavirus-la-justice-impose-a-amazon-de-reduire-drastiquement-son-activite-1194834 https://www.lesechos.fr/economie-france/social/coronavirus-l... >But the American e-commerce giant was condemned to "restrict the activities of [its] warehouses to receiving goods, preparing and shipping orders for food, hygiene and medical products", "until the company has carried out, with the participation of employee representatives, an assessment of the occupational risks inherent in the Covid-19 epidemic in all of its distribution centres and the resulting measures".

by lacker 7y ago

Darkstryder 7y ago

As most democratic countries, France has a complete separation between the government and the justice system. This is a justice decision. The government has nothing to do with it.

ensignavenger 7y ago
Not sure where the above poster is from, but some parts of the world use a different definition for "government" than other parts of the world. In the USA, for example, all three separate branches of "government" (Legislature, Executive, and Judicial) are considered "the government".
- Darkstryder 7y ago
  I'm French. In french "gouvernement" (french word for "government") only refers to the executive branch, and our justice system is strongly attached to its independence from the two other branches. So it seems strange to me to conflate all three branches together. Interestingly, in the French wikipedia page for "gouvernement" [1], there is this paragraph : Différence avec le terme anglais En anglais, le mot « government » s'applique non seulement au gouvernement au sens où on l'entend en français, mais aussi aux collectivités territoriales et aux administrations publiques, aussi bien centrales que locales. Le concept le plus proche en français est donc celui de collectivité publique, qui englobe les institutions politiques qui incarnent directement les pouvoirs législatif, exécutif et judiciaire, ainsi que l'ensemble des administrations qui leur sont rattachées. Which can be loosely translated as : Difference with the english term In English, the word "government" includes not only the executive governement like in French, but also all local and global public administrations. The closest concept in french is therefore "collectivité publique" which encompasses institutions for all Legislative, Executive, Judiciary powers, as well as all administrations under their authorities. I learnt something new today. [1] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gouvernement https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gouvernement
  - umanwizard 7y ago
    IMO, the closest French term to the American English term "government" is État.
  - mikeg8 7y ago
    Thanks for sharing. I learned something too. What’s interesting to me is that, at least in America, we associate the judicial as government because we consider ourselves a “land of law” and the judicial has the responsibility of determining if the laws that “govern” how we can act have been used appropriately or if they violate our constitutional rights. As a French citizen, do you not feel governed by the laws which your courts oversee? Maybe this is purely a difference in language but it’s very fascinating to me.
    - umanwizard 7y ago
      I'm American too (and not the French person you were responding to). IMO it's just an accidental quirk of language. Laws are just as important in other developed nations too.
    - Darkstryder 7y ago
      I would have trouble talking about the difference between American and French views of the law, or even speaking for all French people for that matter. What I can say is that personally, I definitely think I live in a country ruled by law. However separation of powers means there is no single entity exercising total control on this law: the executive branch proposes changes to the law, the legislative ratifies these changes (or not), and the judiciary branch is an arbiter of what happens when the existing law meets real life situations. While the limits between the executive and legislative branches can sometimes feel porous (especially when executive and legislative are controlled by a single political party, as is the case in both France and USA at the moment), the judiciary branch always felt more insular to me from the two others, at least in my country. Another linguistic nuance to think about: in French, we are "ruled by law " but not "governed by law". In French, "gouverner" (to govern) is something that people do, not laws. This is a bit of a brain dump, sorry. I wish I would have more definitive answers for you.
syshum 7y ago
Most people consider the legal system (i refuse to call any state run court a justice system) part of the government, it is the enforcement arm of the government Executive, Legislative, Judicial, are the 3 general area's of a functioning government
- umanwizard 7y ago
  Dividing state organs into those particular three "branches of government" is, as far as I can tell, specific to US culture. Other countries divide things up in different ways. Most modern democracies do have an elected legislature, a legal system, an executive authority (whether it be an elected president or a parliamentary-style cabinet), and a career civil service (i.e., what in the US would just be called non-political-appointees in the Executive Branch), but the terms they use for these can differ, as can the exact nature of the separation of powers between them.
  - syshum 7y ago
    So you dismiss my assertion, then proceed to prove my point All modern functioning governments have the same 3 basic struture These are all part of the government. My point says nothing about how the separation of powers between those government branches function, just that they exist and are all "government" I am not sure how anyone can claim the court system of a nation is not part of "the government" which was the comment I replied to
    - umanwizard 7y ago
      > I am not sure how anyone can claim the court system of a nation is not part of "the government" Different countries have different words for things. It’s as simple as that. What we call “soccer” in the US is called “football” in the UK. It doesn’t mean they’re two different things.
umanwizard 7y ago
In American English (notably distinct in this respect from British English), the term "government" means all state organs; for example, we would consider the Supreme Court to be part of the Federal Government. So the term includes what would in many other countries be called the government, the parliament, the civil service, the judiciary, etc.

brosinante 7y ago

Can't live without my one day delivery for sure, amazon workers will just have to deal with the virus, right?

013a 7y ago

I agree. There are a ton of goods in the world one might initially think are non-essential, but become essential in the right circumstances (think: batteries, computer cables, tape, etc). There are many goods which would easily classify as "essential" under a court order, despite not being essential (think: oreos, mountain dew, doritos, etc). This distinction cannot be legislated. Amazon is absolutely in the right to shut down for a bit while they try to figure it out. They're also absolutely in the wrong for the way they've treated their employees over the past month. Both of these can be true! Its like everyone in this thread needs to pick a side, and the other side is crazy for thinking the way they do.

josefx 7y ago

Amazon isn't the only provider of these non essential goods and most others are now probably thinking twice about flaunting the currently stringent worker safety regulations.

clarry 7y ago

> Banning Amazon from selling nonessential items seems detrimental to society. My hot take: having companies, that are so large that banning them is detrimental to society, is detrimental to society and extremely dangerous. We should never give so much power to one corporation. It should always be possible to reject a company.

missedthecue 7y ago
Are you saying that all forms of concentrated power are bad, or that the only good kind of concentrated power is the kind that owns all the weapons?
- nordsieck 7y ago
  > Are you saying that all forms of concentrated power are bad, or that the only good kind of concentrated power is the kind that owns all the weapons? I think the claim is that democracy means "the people" are in charge in some sense. Of course, it's always been my experience that Starbucks has much better customer service than the DMV, so I'm not sure exactly how much that matters; it's not just that the people are nicer - the company actually cares somewhat about my opinions.
  - krapp 7y ago
    Don't mistake the facade of customer courtesy for actual leverage or an equal power dynamic. Starbucks doesn't care at all about your opinions. You actually likely have more influence over the running of your own local government than your local franchise coffee shop.
    - nordsieck 7y ago
      > Starbucks doesn't care at all about your opinions. My opinions that Starbucks doesn't care about: * How much foreign aid the US should send to Liberia * Which model of surfboard is best * Contract negotiations at the local school district My opinions that Starbucks cares a lot about: * How much I like their coffee in comparison to other coffee I drink * How the purchase process went * How much I like spending time in their store Starbucks cares very much about my opinions when it matters to them. Whereas government, local or otherwise, couldn't care less about me. > You actually likely have more influence over the running of your own local government than your local franchise coffee shop. Clearly you haven't had to deal with an HOA, much less local government.

benhurmarcel 7y ago

Amazon isn't prohibited to ship "non-essential" items there. But they are forced to do it while adequately protecting their workers.

losvedir 7y ago
Are you sure? The article is pretty explicit about them being banned from shipping "non-essential" goods there. It says they're ordered to do that AND protect their workers.
- benhurmarcel 7y ago
  French news is pretty clear on that. https://www.capital.fr/entreprises-marches/la-justice-demande-a-amazon-de-limiter-son-activite-1367425 https://www.capital.fr/entreprises-marches/la-justice-demand... > stop the delivery of non-essential products until is put in place an evaluation of the risks and measures necessary to protect the employees health https://www.capital.fr/entreprises-marches/amazon-va-fermer-ses-entrepots-francais-pendant-une-semaine-1367476 https://www.capital.fr/entreprises-marches/amazon-va-fermer-... > order the online shop to limit itself to sell "essential products" (food, hygiene or medical) as long as the sanitary risks of the activity in the warehouse haven't been evaluated Edit: better source https://www.lesechos.fr/economie-france/social/coronavirus-la-justice-impose-a-amazon-de-reduire-drastiquement-son-activite-1194834 https://www.lesechos.fr/economie-france/social/coronavirus-l... >But the American e-commerce giant was condemned to "restrict the activities of [its] warehouses to receiving goods, preparing and shipping orders for food, hygiene and medical products", "until the company has carried out, with the participation of employee representatives, an assessment of the occupational risks inherent in the Covid-19 epidemic in all of its distribution centres and the resulting measures".