4 ms·

Police mostly just follow orders. Most terrible things we like to pin on police should probably instead be pinned on police, local political leadership, and ult

Police mostly just follow orders. Most terrible things we like to pin on police should probably instead be pinned on police, local political leadership, and ultimately local polities. If police are assholes in your area there's probably a good chance it's because the local political elites want them to be assholes.

chithanh 7y ago
> because the local political elites enable them to be assholes FTFY
- imtringued 7y ago
  It is true. When a policeman breaks the law himself he might get covered by his higher ups and merely lose his rank or the job but still not face any criminal consequences.
  - RickJWagner 7y ago
    Might. Or when she breaks the law, she might get thrown in jail like everyone else. It depends on how corrupt the local establishment is. The cops play a tactical role. For reference, see the original handling of the Jussie Smollett case. Clearly laws were broken, but corrupt higher-ups provided cover.
    - bilbo0s 7y ago
      In all honesty, I'm not really sure how the whole, "well everyone is corrupt" thing all you guys commenting here seem to be doing helps. I mean, yeah, everyone is corrupt, but you are still responsible for your actions. I mean, if the DA or mayor or whatever in a town is bent, does that mean a cop who coerces sexual favors from a prostitute he's caught in that jurisdiction is not a dirtbag? Of course not. It only means that your DA is a dirtbag, and your cop is a dirtbag. (It's also likely that the dirtbaggery extends to others in city leadership. The judges, the mayor, some council people. Etc. Just like the dirtbaggery in the police force likely extends to other cops in that department.)
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - pinopinopino 7y ago
    It is also in the nature of a policeman to follow law, I think. Non corrupt ones don't really have a choice.
    - misterhtmlcss 7y ago
      I agree with that. Cops that get into their career because they believe in Justice will follow the letters of the law. Only as they gain experience to they see the big picture and become the best kind of cop. Someone that uses good judgement
throwlaplace 7y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem
- lmilcin 7y ago
  This should be required reading for every person. I remember I thought I kind of understood the issue but the reading of this book opened my eyes to how important and fundamental the issue really is.
ausbah 7y ago
"Just following orders" isn't a valid excuse. Following orders means you are still compliant in making those orders happen, I don't think it's more complicated than that.
- 1337shadow 7y ago
  I think the OP is just saying that people often forget about what separation of powers is and what it implies. If cops didn't have to follow orders this would mean giving them more powers than just executive. Would that really be a good thing ? Probably in some cases for sure, probably not in others ...
jeltz 7y ago
Isn't the order here to avoid citing them? Someone at a quite low level is ignoring the orders from the city.
ryanlol 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders
JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> Police mostly just follow orders And in this case, the law. If the locals don’t like this, they should carve exceptions into their law. Not pass “a City Council resolution encouraging the mayor to consider relaxing crackdowns” and a CDC encouragement “not to clear homeless camps unless they can move those living there into housing” [1]. [1] https://www.voiceofsandiego.org/topics/public-safety/police-are-still-citing-the-homeless-despite-cdc-and-council-guidance/ https://www.voiceofsandiego.org/topics/public-safety/police-...
tyingq 7y ago
I'm not convinced this is true. Surely the power afforded to police attracts a disproportionate amount of recruits that want to use that power the wrong way. Not that any individual policeman is sadistic by default, but the likelihood is higher than a random sample of people. Domestic violence stats among police is significantly higher than the general public, for example. https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-officers-who-hit-their-wives-or-girlfriends/380329/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-...
- djaque 7y ago
  Agreed. All I have to do is think back to which people from my high school went on to become police officers. Somehow it's never the types of people that were looking out for others.
pjmlp 7y ago
Just following orders has been a nice excuse thorough many black periods of the human history.
zadkey 7y ago
They are not devoid of personal responsibility for following bad orders either. Someone else on this thread already referenced "Superior Orders" which I was thinking about as well. We as a society already determined in the 50's that doing bad things because a superior officer told me to does not negate responsibility for the actions taken.
GaryNumanVevo 7y ago
No one tells police to beat up homeless people. Police will do it because they know they won't be held responsible. They're assholes because of the inherent power dynamic.

chithanh 7y ago

> because the local political elites enable them to be assholes FTFY

imtringued 7y ago
It is true. When a policeman breaks the law himself he might get covered by his higher ups and merely lose his rank or the job but still not face any criminal consequences.
- RickJWagner 7y ago
  Might. Or when she breaks the law, she might get thrown in jail like everyone else. It depends on how corrupt the local establishment is. The cops play a tactical role. For reference, see the original handling of the Jussie Smollett case. Clearly laws were broken, but corrupt higher-ups provided cover.
  - bilbo0s 7y ago
    In all honesty, I'm not really sure how the whole, "well everyone is corrupt" thing all you guys commenting here seem to be doing helps. I mean, yeah, everyone is corrupt, but you are still responsible for your actions. I mean, if the DA or mayor or whatever in a town is bent, does that mean a cop who coerces sexual favors from a prostitute he's caught in that jurisdiction is not a dirtbag? Of course not. It only means that your DA is a dirtbag, and your cop is a dirtbag. (It's also likely that the dirtbaggery extends to others in city leadership. The judges, the mayor, some council people. Etc. Just like the dirtbaggery in the police force likely extends to other cops in that department.)
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- pinopinopino 7y ago
  It is also in the nature of a policeman to follow law, I think. Non corrupt ones don't really have a choice.
  - misterhtmlcss 7y ago
    I agree with that. Cops that get into their career because they believe in Justice will follow the letters of the law. Only as they gain experience to they see the big picture and become the best kind of cop. Someone that uses good judgement

throwlaplace 7y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem

lmilcin 7y ago
This should be required reading for every person. I remember I thought I kind of understood the issue but the reading of this book opened my eyes to how important and fundamental the issue really is.

ausbah 7y ago

"Just following orders" isn't a valid excuse. Following orders means you are still compliant in making those orders happen, I don't think it's more complicated than that.

1337shadow 7y ago
I think the OP is just saying that people often forget about what separation of powers is and what it implies. If cops didn't have to follow orders this would mean giving them more powers than just executive. Would that really be a good thing ? Probably in some cases for sure, probably not in others ...

jeltz 7y ago

Isn't the order here to avoid citing them? Someone at a quite low level is ignoring the orders from the city.

ryanlol 7y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders

JumpCrisscross 7y ago

> Police mostly just follow orders And in this case, the law. If the locals don’t like this, they should carve exceptions into their law. Not pass “a City Council resolution encouraging the mayor to consider relaxing crackdowns” and a CDC encouragement “not to clear homeless camps unless they can move those living there into housing” [1]. [1] https://www.voiceofsandiego.org/topics/public-safety/police-are-still-citing-the-homeless-despite-cdc-and-council-guidance/ https://www.voiceofsandiego.org/topics/public-safety/police-...

tyingq 7y ago

I'm not convinced this is true. Surely the power afforded to police attracts a disproportionate amount of recruits that want to use that power the wrong way. Not that any individual policeman is sadistic by default, but the likelihood is higher than a random sample of people. Domestic violence stats among police is significantly higher than the general public, for example. https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-officers-who-hit-their-wives-or-girlfriends/380329/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-...

djaque 7y ago
Agreed. All I have to do is think back to which people from my high school went on to become police officers. Somehow it's never the types of people that were looking out for others.

pjmlp 7y ago

Just following orders has been a nice excuse thorough many black periods of the human history.

zadkey 7y ago

They are not devoid of personal responsibility for following bad orders either. Someone else on this thread already referenced "Superior Orders" which I was thinking about as well. We as a society already determined in the 50's that doing bad things because a superior officer told me to does not negate responsibility for the actions taken.

GaryNumanVevo 7y ago

No one tells police to beat up homeless people. Police will do it because they know they won't be held responsible. They're assholes because of the inherent power dynamic.