4 ms·

I'm happy that your experiences with police while homeless were mostly uneventful. However using this anecdotal story as evidence that the police are adequately

by tuxxy 7y ago

I'm happy that your experiences with police while homeless were mostly uneventful. However using this anecdotal story as evidence that the police are adequately equipped to play the "social worker" role is exceptionally dangerous. Nearly all the data in the US points to the fact that police are the exact opposite of your story -- abjectly incapable of handling this role. > Cops are human. They aren't a monolith. Yes and no. Cops are indeed humans, but the institution of policing demonstrates that they behave and act homogeneously. E.g. "the thin blue line" or the "Blue wall of silence".

DoreenMichele 7y ago
It never ceases to surprise and amaze me how badly my point can and will consistently be mangled by some internet stranger. I'm not at all making the point you think I am. The article under question isn't about the police being asked to play social worker. It's about them being asked to just leave the homeless the hell alone for the time being. My real point is that there's a pandemic on and everyone is both under a great deal of stress and simultaneously being asked to do new things. I would bet money that some of this is just habit taking over. I'm not defending it. I'm not justifying it. I'm just explaining how humans work. Cops are just cogs in the machine. They play the role we assign them. We need systemic changes. Maybe the pandemic will help foster some of that. But vilifying cops in a sweepingly dismissive manner isn't going to help us find a path forward. It's easy to vent your spleen at the nearest target during stressful events. It almost never improves anything and typically makes things worse. Yes, we need to do better. Trash talking the police is probably not how we get there from here.
- the_af 7y ago
  Doreen, I usually read your comments with great interest because they are always insightful. I think in this case you're mistaken though, your personal experience notwithstanding. Are you from the US? The police in many countries is inherently incapable of treating the defenseless well. This sometimes has to do with the local political leadership, but often times it's simply intrinsic to the force. I live in Argentina and the political leadership is desperately trying to get the cops to enforce the lockdown in a gentle manner, yet there are cases everywhere of them simply abusing people in poverty-stricken areas. The police over here prey on the weak because it makes them feel powerful (and yes, usually because there are little consequences -- and that's political). But the point here is that the police and the politicians are at odds in this case. I think the causes for police misbehavior are multiple and indeed systemic: giving guns and power to people unqualified for it and who get a kick out of having power over people; police forces with undemocratic traditions (as in Chile and Argentina, where the force was shaped by our dictatorships; this doesn't apply to the US) don't understand how to behave in a democracy; over here the police often comes from the same low-wage background as the people they harass, and harassment becomes a form of differentiation ("I'm not like them, they dress funny, and are dumb and violent"); discrimination based on perceived skin tone of course, and this is probably a lot like in the US. Not sure if in the US it's exactly the same, but from what I read, in many cases it's pretty similar.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    I wrote you a longer reply and then deleted it. I've simply been up too many hours at this point and I feel like we're probably talking at cross purposes. I need to either finally get to sleep or just shut up. No good will come of me continuing to post in this state. Sorry things are so bad where you are.
    - lonelappde 7y ago
      Your lowest quality posts are far far higher quality than the average on HN, even when people read uncharitably and reply aggressively and your frustration rises. Thank you for all you share.
      - the_af 7y ago
        I hope you're not implying I replied aggressively to Doreen. I was civil and I appreciate her posts, I just disagreed on this issue. We must learn to understand that disagreement does not equal fighting.
        DoreenMichele 7y ago
        I seriously doubt it was intended to say anything about you. As for our exchange: I'm not saying that the police are all paragons of virtue or should never be criticized. I'm just saying that stress tends to push people towards absolutist thinking in a way that actively worsens problems. In most cases, focusing on "this behavior or outcome is undesirable and needs to stop" will be more productive than framing it as "these people are simply bad people." That second tends to entrench problems and should primarily be used to justify removal of specific people after efforts to remedy the matter by other means have failed. You are more likely to find effective solutions if you approach it with some understanding for why the police fail to behave at all times like paragons of virtue. Simply branding people as bad people tends to yield no path forward for finding better approaches to the problem. When upset, people tend to exaggerate and to make more damning claims than they might otherwise and we should be cautious about where that leads, especially during a global crisis. Now more than ever, we need cooler heads to prevail. Generally speaking, being fair and evenhanded is most needed when it's the hard choice to make. This is part of why police forces behave badly -- because they are asked daily to take the high road while dealing with awful stuff and they get jaded and burned out. In their case, they are often dealing with the threat of imminent physical harm to themselves and the physiological responses that elicits, a la an adrenaline rush that causes a fight or flight reaction. That's especially hard to overcome. Public discussion in a forum doesn't involve those same elements. If it gets too harried, we can step away from the keyboard. Surely, this is a place where we can work at having cooler heads prevail. Some of the first few comments on this piece were sweepingly dismissive of the police as simply straight up bad people who don't care. You showed up later, so you may have missed that context. By the time you showed up, there was meaty discussion and a variety of views. But there mostly wasn't when I left my remark urging people to not forget that cops are human. I think you could have added your observations about police behavior where you live without asserting that I'm wrong. I don't think I'm wrong, but I also don't think my point really says what you seem to see it as saying. The discussion here is about police behavior in a specific time and place. It's not wrong to feel that it's appropriate to talk about police behavior across the globe as part of that discussion, but it's also not accurate to act like I was suggesting "Police in Argentina are all paragons of virtue." That's a bit of a stretch and leaves me not knowing how to reply because it seems like such a far fetched interpretation of my remarks. I was actually homeless in downtown San Diego for six months and in San Diego county for more than two years. I have first-hand experience with engaging with police while homeless in San Diego. My above anecdote comes from a police encounter that occurred while I was homeless and camped in San Diego county. So I think it's directly pertinent to the discussion here. I've never been to Argentina. I wouldn't presume to say much, if anything, about policing there.
kortilla 7y ago
> Nearly all the data in the US What does that even mean? Data on what and what sources?
imtringued 7y ago
Actually, I disagree. It might surprise you but the extremely violent behavior of American policemen is primarily influenced by external factors (such as the number of criminals equipped with guns). No matter what you do, you can't solve the problem by improving the police force.
throwaway_pdp09 7y ago
> using this anecdotal story as evidence that the police are adequately equipped to play the "social worker" role is exceptionally dangerous From her experience, she is an 'expert' in this subject (with the caveats: in the US, with this particular police force and individuals). It is solid evidence in my book (with caveats, as above). You are dismissing that because... why? It's almost as if you don't want to believe that people can be good; that everyone must be unrelentingly uncaring. > Nearly all the data in the US points to the fact that police are the exact opposite of your story You've not provided evidence of this. > but the institution of policing demonstrates that they behave and act homogeneously If they did act homogeneously then they would uniformly treat people well, as per the poster's experience. But you're claiming the opposite. You're contradicting yourself. I may be reading too much into what you say, though, I suspect you meant something milder than what came across.

by tuxxy 7y ago

DoreenMichele 7y ago

It never ceases to surprise and amaze me how badly my point can and will consistently be mangled by some internet stranger. I'm not at all making the point you think I am. The article under question isn't about the police being asked to play social worker. It's about them being asked to just leave the homeless the hell alone for the time being. My real point is that there's a pandemic on and everyone is both under a great deal of stress and simultaneously being asked to do new things. I would bet money that some of this is just habit taking over. I'm not defending it. I'm not justifying it. I'm just explaining how humans work. Cops are just cogs in the machine. They play the role we assign them. We need systemic changes. Maybe the pandemic will help foster some of that. But vilifying cops in a sweepingly dismissive manner isn't going to help us find a path forward. It's easy to vent your spleen at the nearest target during stressful events. It almost never improves anything and typically makes things worse. Yes, we need to do better. Trash talking the police is probably not how we get there from here.

the_af 7y ago
Doreen, I usually read your comments with great interest because they are always insightful. I think in this case you're mistaken though, your personal experience notwithstanding. Are you from the US? The police in many countries is inherently incapable of treating the defenseless well. This sometimes has to do with the local political leadership, but often times it's simply intrinsic to the force. I live in Argentina and the political leadership is desperately trying to get the cops to enforce the lockdown in a gentle manner, yet there are cases everywhere of them simply abusing people in poverty-stricken areas. The police over here prey on the weak because it makes them feel powerful (and yes, usually because there are little consequences -- and that's political). But the point here is that the police and the politicians are at odds in this case. I think the causes for police misbehavior are multiple and indeed systemic: giving guns and power to people unqualified for it and who get a kick out of having power over people; police forces with undemocratic traditions (as in Chile and Argentina, where the force was shaped by our dictatorships; this doesn't apply to the US) don't understand how to behave in a democracy; over here the police often comes from the same low-wage background as the people they harass, and harassment becomes a form of differentiation ("I'm not like them, they dress funny, and are dumb and violent"); discrimination based on perceived skin tone of course, and this is probably a lot like in the US. Not sure if in the US it's exactly the same, but from what I read, in many cases it's pretty similar.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  I wrote you a longer reply and then deleted it. I've simply been up too many hours at this point and I feel like we're probably talking at cross purposes. I need to either finally get to sleep or just shut up. No good will come of me continuing to post in this state. Sorry things are so bad where you are.
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    Your lowest quality posts are far far higher quality than the average on HN, even when people read uncharitably and reply aggressively and your frustration rises. Thank you for all you share.
    - the_af 7y ago
      I hope you're not implying I replied aggressively to Doreen. I was civil and I appreciate her posts, I just disagreed on this issue. We must learn to understand that disagreement does not equal fighting.
      - DoreenMichele 7y ago
        I seriously doubt it was intended to say anything about you. As for our exchange: I'm not saying that the police are all paragons of virtue or should never be criticized. I'm just saying that stress tends to push people towards absolutist thinking in a way that actively worsens problems. In most cases, focusing on "this behavior or outcome is undesirable and needs to stop" will be more productive than framing it as "these people are simply bad people." That second tends to entrench problems and should primarily be used to justify removal of specific people after efforts to remedy the matter by other means have failed. You are more likely to find effective solutions if you approach it with some understanding for why the police fail to behave at all times like paragons of virtue. Simply branding people as bad people tends to yield no path forward for finding better approaches to the problem. When upset, people tend to exaggerate and to make more damning claims than they might otherwise and we should be cautious about where that leads, especially during a global crisis. Now more than ever, we need cooler heads to prevail. Generally speaking, being fair and evenhanded is most needed when it's the hard choice to make. This is part of why police forces behave badly -- because they are asked daily to take the high road while dealing with awful stuff and they get jaded and burned out. In their case, they are often dealing with the threat of imminent physical harm to themselves and the physiological responses that elicits, a la an adrenaline rush that causes a fight or flight reaction. That's especially hard to overcome. Public discussion in a forum doesn't involve those same elements. If it gets too harried, we can step away from the keyboard. Surely, this is a place where we can work at having cooler heads prevail. Some of the first few comments on this piece were sweepingly dismissive of the police as simply straight up bad people who don't care. You showed up later, so you may have missed that context. By the time you showed up, there was meaty discussion and a variety of views. But there mostly wasn't when I left my remark urging people to not forget that cops are human. I think you could have added your observations about police behavior where you live without asserting that I'm wrong. I don't think I'm wrong, but I also don't think my point really says what you seem to see it as saying. The discussion here is about police behavior in a specific time and place. It's not wrong to feel that it's appropriate to talk about police behavior across the globe as part of that discussion, but it's also not accurate to act like I was suggesting "Police in Argentina are all paragons of virtue." That's a bit of a stretch and leaves me not knowing how to reply because it seems like such a far fetched interpretation of my remarks. I was actually homeless in downtown San Diego for six months and in San Diego county for more than two years. I have first-hand experience with engaging with police while homeless in San Diego. My above anecdote comes from a police encounter that occurred while I was homeless and camped in San Diego county. So I think it's directly pertinent to the discussion here. I've never been to Argentina. I wouldn't presume to say much, if anything, about policing there.

kortilla 7y ago

> Nearly all the data in the US What does that even mean? Data on what and what sources?

imtringued 7y ago

Actually, I disagree. It might surprise you but the extremely violent behavior of American policemen is primarily influenced by external factors (such as the number of criminals equipped with guns). No matter what you do, you can't solve the problem by improving the police force.

throwaway_pdp09 7y ago

> using this anecdotal story as evidence that the police are adequately equipped to play the "social worker" role is exceptionally dangerous From her experience, she is an 'expert' in this subject (with the caveats: in the US, with this particular police force and individuals). It is solid evidence in my book (with caveats, as above). You are dismissing that because... why? It's almost as if you don't want to believe that people can be good; that everyone must be unrelentingly uncaring. > Nearly all the data in the US points to the fact that police are the exact opposite of your story You've not provided evidence of this. > but the institution of policing demonstrates that they behave and act homogeneously If they did act homogeneously then they would uniformly treat people well, as per the poster's experience. But you're claiming the opposite. You're contradicting yourself. I may be reading too much into what you say, though, I suspect you meant something milder than what came across.