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Indeed. Making the headline here about Bloomberg smells of the exact kind of tiptoeing around the CCP that the article discusses. The real story here, and proba
by seneca 7y ago
Indeed. Making the headline here about Bloomberg smells of the exact kind of tiptoeing around the CCP that the article discusses. The real story here, and probably of this decade, is the corruption and subversion of Western institutions by the Chinese government.
- phkahler 7y ago>> The real story here, and probably of this decade, is the corruption and subversion of Western institutions by the Chinese government. ...with the full cooperation of western corporations.
- smooth_remmy 7y ago...and the full cooperation of the western elites and the government.
- yibg 7y agoProbably because elites in china enjoy a huge advantage, and elites in the west would want that kind of advantage. If you got the power and money in China, with the right kind of connections you can literally get away with murder.
- yters 7y agoOr CCP is a shell for communist westerners to try out their social experiments on other nations. Communism is itself a western import to China, not an indigenous worldview.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- carapace 7y agoI've got to congratulate you. I've been a conspiracy nut for decades but I've never heard anyone suggest that the Chinese Communists are a front for Western control. * slow clap* But no. Study the history of the Middle Kingdom. They invented totalitarian bureaucratic central government centuries ago.
- yters 7y agoWell, communism is not indigenous to China. It is a western idea imported by western educated Chinese intellectuals, who then indoctrinated Mao. Whether the western control is direct or indirect, it is indisputable that the CCP is not an indigenous movement. It is a product of western ideological imperialism. As a very visual example, go travel around China, visiting areas with greater and lesser CCP control. The less the control, the more elements of traditional China are around. The greater the control, the more it looks like a replica of yet another Western metropolis. I saw this very clearly when visiting Xinjing province near Tibet and hiking through the villages. The normal part of the village has traditional, hand made housing, beautiful craftsmenship, great food. Then, on the outskirts of the villages, were towering, empty apartment blocks. The CCP planned to move the villagers out of their traditional homes into these huge apartment blocks they could more easily control. So, yes, most clearly the CCP is a product of the west, not ethnic Chinese culture.
- carapace 7y agoYour earlier comment sounded to me like you were saying that current Western communist elites are somehow controlling the CCP, and that's why they are going along with "the corruption and subversion of Western institutions by the Chinese government." But that doesn't make sense to me because there aren't any Western communist elites anymore, are there? But if you're just pointing out the Western origin of the foundations of Chinese Communism them, yes, I agree the whole thing could be seen, from the POV of the West, as being confronted with a kind of social/political prodigal son. I'm so used to thinking of communism as an Eastern thing, but you're right (again).
- 7y ago
- bavell 7y agoExactly. We can blame China ad nauseum but at the end of the day we are wholly responsible for allowing the situation to unfold as it has.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 7y agoWho is we? I've never made a decision that compromised my beliefs or my country to benefit China.
- NotSammyHagar 7y agoIf we go along with companies that do that, and aren't aware of the potential and looking out for it, then everyone can be complacently complicit.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 7y agoIt's intellectually dishonest to wax philosophical and paint the consumers as the problem. Powerful people have made conscious decisions to short sell their countrymen in the interest personal gain. My witting or not engagement with their company is not the problem. It is ridiculous, to the point where I must question the motives behind your comment, to offload the moral responsibility of every company onto their customers. It is impossible for every person to vet every company and their adjuncts. I did not tell Amazon to work their employees so hard that the only way they can keep their job is by wearing diapers. No. The responsibility for decisions like this rests solely on the few people at Amazon who have the power to change such conditions. Whether I shop at Amazon or not is immaterial. It is the responsibility of government to step in and try the greedy tyrants at every abusive company for their wholesale abuse of Americans. The fact that government has not arrested these abusive people is a reflection on the quality of people in position to effect real changes.
- NotSammyHagar 7y agoI not sure what you are getting it. My position is I should consider the way businesses I use treat their workers. If a business treats them like shit then I may likely choose to stop doing business with them, even if it inconveniences me.
- fzeroracer 7y agoYou mean said corruption which is only possible by the willing cooperation of western corporations and institutions? Corruption isn't a one way street here. The real story isn't 'the CCP is trying to infiltrate western governments!' because everyone remotely aware of the geopolitical game already knows this. You and I aren't going to be able to do anything about this and it's just avoiding things we CAN do. Which is pressuring our local governments and companies to not engage in this obvious corruption. Which means going back to the original point of the article which is Bloomberg purposely burying stories for the sake of appeasing foreign powers.
- seneca 7y agoYou know, that's a very fair point. I suppose the actual surprising part is just how successful the CCP has been at this, which, as you say, requires participation. I do think it is worth highlighting that it is happening, because so many people still regard such statements as "conspiracy theory". I think I agree with you that the actual lever for combating it is pressuring our own institutions, though. As an aside, your comment is nearly dead only 3 minute after posting.
- fzeroracer 7y agoIt happens, some people might think I'm not hardline enough on the CCP, others might think it's not worth discussing. That's just the nature of HN posts around topics like this. As for the surprise factor, if you look at the history of the CCP and the way they use capitalism against itself it makes a lot of sense. China is a huge country worth its weight in gold to corporations, many of whom are now deeply embedded because of how much profit it generates. If they rebuke China, that means losing (a lot) of money which goes against how our system works. In this sense, it's the free market working as intended. Which is easily gamed by political powers by tossing more money and incentives into the system.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- op03 7y agoWestern Institutions were always corrupt. How else do you get Slavery, Colonization and World Wars, Mindless consumerism and endless celeb worship. The Chinese are not perfect but neither is the West.
- LoSboccacc 7y agoblatant whataboutism is blatant.
- dang 7y agoPlease keep canned arguments and tired tropes off HN. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20whataboutism&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
- LoSboccacc 7y agowhat more is there to tell? it's exactly what it is, and pointing it out is bad? should we just take this kind of trite low effort baiting and suck it up, because we're too grand to bother? fuck that, pointing out factual faults in someone argument is not a trope, it's the core of rejecting bankrupt arguments.
- detaro 7y agoIMHO: downvote (or flag) and move on.
- JSavageOne 7y agoYes the west is not perfect either, but let's not pretend as if Chinese citizens enjoy even a fraction of the freedom and liberty as Americans in the U.S. In one of these countries they kidnap you if you criticize the government, guess which.
- Klinky 7y ago
- yters 7y agoFurther irony in this article generated another comment thread discussing how criticism of CCP is silenced, which itself was detached by the HN mods. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22867474 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22867474
- dang 7y agoIt's time for you to stop breaking the site guidelines. I've posted four long explanations in this thread, and hundreds if not thousands of previous explanations over many years. You can easily find them by following the copious links to past moderation comments that I always include. It's fine if you don't want to read them, it's fine if you read them and disagree, it's not fine for you to continue flouting the rules here, and this has zero to do with liking or disliking China or communist parties. It's about having a site that doesn't devolve into flamewar tirefires. Please stop now.
- incelmods 7y agoAnd China is about having a nicer homogenous society, which is why porn is blocked on the internet, criticism of government is not allowed, and muslims are killed. The worst spam on this site is you - you personally. You are not attacking people who say "fuck you douche" - you are attacking, with a cannot, who are "slightly not nice." You personally replace it with your little powertrips to make yourself fell better - no one is interested in your little paragraphs of useless crap in every thread. Look at your own links with your past moderation comments. that's spam and a huge dilution of content - and you accomplish what, removing things that are slightly not nice? the big question is, what kind of complete loser would spend hours and hours doing what you do here.
- yters 7y agoAs a counter to the other poster, though I do not always agree, I appreciate your efforts, dang. It is not an easy job, and probably quite thankless, but necessary.
- dang 7y ago
- FabHK 7y ago> The real story here, and probably of this decade, is the corruption and subversion of Western institutions by the Chinese government. And that “real” story has been covered by the quoted NY Times article, and is not the major subject of this story. This also shows that only some western institutions are corrupted by China, including Bloomberg, but not all. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/29/world/asia/wang-jianlin-abillionaire-at-the-intersection-of-business-and-power-in-china.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/29/world/asia/wang-jianlin-a...