3 ms·

Pretty sure Neuromancer isn't a utopian novel, and that Gibson isn't a utopian.

ashtonkem 7y ago
Arguable; I’m not enough of a literary person to argue it out. But the sentence above is a very escapist attitude, and I’d argue that my original point still holds; escapists often fail to recognize the source of the problems they’re escaping from, and recreate them wherever they escape to.
- the_af 7y ago
  It's not really arguable. Gibson wrote punk literature, at least back then; he identified himself as a punk subculture writer, and punk isn't utopian. He was not describing a desirable future, but a depressing one where soulless corporations rule the world. > But the sentence above is a very escapist attitude Escapism can be pessimistic, as in Gibson. It's not him who "escapes", it's the denizens of the soulless world he described, and the "world" they escape to can be just as alienating. It's no triumph to "escape" to Gibson's matrix, and his world continues to be a crapsack [1][2]. ---- [1] https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld [2] https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/CrapsackWorld/Literature https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/CrapsackWorld/Literat...
  - Apocryphon 7y ago
    The setting as a whole is dystopian, but the possibilities of the net as a free space for people to flee into and become empowered there- isn't that a utopian enclave, a refuge? Regardless of post hoc genre classifications like cyberpunk vs. postcyberpunk, you can still have pockets of hope within a generally dystopian setting, and perhaps Gibson's cyberspace was the place in Neuromancer.
    - the_af 7y ago
      I'm specifically arguing about Gibson, Neuromancer and his related works, not about the cyberpunk genre at large. Gibson self-identifies -- or did, anyway -- as a punk writer. Cyberspace is not really a pocket of hope in his stories. The ending of Neuromancer itself is ambiguous and not exactly optimistic. Many of his short stories are similarly dark and depressing, things seldom ending well for his characters. I'm not speaking of cyberpunk in general. Note that Gibson himself has stated the modern "cyberpunk" genre largely misses the point, mistaking a novel counter-cultural idea for its visual trappings.
    - duskwuff 7y ago
      > but the possibilities of the net as a free space for people to flee into and become empowered there- isn't that a utopian enclave, a refuge? That theme isn't really present in the Neuromancer series. From the perspective of our viewpoint characters, the matrix is primarily a place that one goes to do a job, not a place to hang out; it's seen primarily as the domain of megacorps and mysterious AIs, not a human space.
      - gpderetta 7y ago
        It is present in the follow up Count Zero though. Also while Gibson focuses on characters at the fringe of society, the world itself is not significantly more distopian than our world (or the '80s), which is probably one of the author's points. I still wouldn't call it escapism though.
        duskwuff 7y ago
        > the world itself is not significantly more distopian than our world (or the '80s) I'm not sure I agree with that assessment! The backstory to the Sprawl universe is crushingly dystopian -- Soviet Russia has won a nuclear war, destroying a number of European cities (particularly in Germany) and irradiating much of the European continent. In the wake of that war, it appears that the US government has largely collapsed, leaving megacorporations (like Sense/Net), wealthy families (like the Tessier-Ashpools), and street gangs (like the Yakuza and Panther Moderns) as the primary sources of power. 2020 sure isn't great, but I'd still prefer it to the crapsack world that Gibson built.

Arguable; I’m not enough of a literary person to argue it out. But the sentence above is a very escapist attitude, and I’d argue that my original point still holds; escapists often fail to recognize the source of the problems they’re escaping from, and recreate them wherever they escape to.

the_af 7y ago
It's not really arguable. Gibson wrote punk literature, at least back then; he identified himself as a punk subculture writer, and punk isn't utopian. He was not describing a desirable future, but a depressing one where soulless corporations rule the world. > But the sentence above is a very escapist attitude Escapism can be pessimistic, as in Gibson. It's not him who "escapes", it's the denizens of the soulless world he described, and the "world" they escape to can be just as alienating. It's no triumph to "escape" to Gibson's matrix, and his world continues to be a crapsack [1][2]. ---- [1] https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld [2] https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/CrapsackWorld/Literature https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/CrapsackWorld/Literat...
- Apocryphon 7y ago
  The setting as a whole is dystopian, but the possibilities of the net as a free space for people to flee into and become empowered there- isn't that a utopian enclave, a refuge? Regardless of post hoc genre classifications like cyberpunk vs. postcyberpunk, you can still have pockets of hope within a generally dystopian setting, and perhaps Gibson's cyberspace was the place in Neuromancer.
  - the_af 7y ago
    I'm specifically arguing about Gibson, Neuromancer and his related works, not about the cyberpunk genre at large. Gibson self-identifies -- or did, anyway -- as a punk writer. Cyberspace is not really a pocket of hope in his stories. The ending of Neuromancer itself is ambiguous and not exactly optimistic. Many of his short stories are similarly dark and depressing, things seldom ending well for his characters. I'm not speaking of cyberpunk in general. Note that Gibson himself has stated the modern "cyberpunk" genre largely misses the point, mistaking a novel counter-cultural idea for its visual trappings.
  - duskwuff 7y ago
    > but the possibilities of the net as a free space for people to flee into and become empowered there- isn't that a utopian enclave, a refuge? That theme isn't really present in the Neuromancer series. From the perspective of our viewpoint characters, the matrix is primarily a place that one goes to do a job, not a place to hang out; it's seen primarily as the domain of megacorps and mysterious AIs, not a human space.
    - gpderetta 7y ago
      It is present in the follow up Count Zero though. Also while Gibson focuses on characters at the fringe of society, the world itself is not significantly more distopian than our world (or the '80s), which is probably one of the author's points. I still wouldn't call it escapism though.
      - duskwuff 7y ago
        > the world itself is not significantly more distopian than our world (or the '80s) I'm not sure I agree with that assessment! The backstory to the Sprawl universe is crushingly dystopian -- Soviet Russia has won a nuclear war, destroying a number of European cities (particularly in Germany) and irradiating much of the European continent. In the wake of that war, it appears that the US government has largely collapsed, leaving megacorporations (like Sense/Net), wealthy families (like the Tessier-Ashpools), and street gangs (like the Yakuza and Panther Moderns) as the primary sources of power. 2020 sure isn't great, but I'd still prefer it to the crapsack world that Gibson built.