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One could write this article about Bloomberg ... or one could write this article about China. I think the China part of the story is more relevant and newswort

One could write this article about Bloomberg ... or one could write this article about China. I think the China part of the story is more relevant and newsworthy at this point, considering how things have unfolded in the years since. The news company probably didn't decide all on its own to pursue this remarkable effort to kill a story that had not much to do with itself.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
seneca 7y ago
Indeed. Making the headline here about Bloomberg smells of the exact kind of tiptoeing around the CCP that the article discusses. The real story here, and probably of this decade, is the corruption and subversion of Western institutions by the Chinese government.
- phkahler 7y ago
  >> The real story here, and probably of this decade, is the corruption and subversion of Western institutions by the Chinese government. ...with the full cooperation of western corporations.
  - smooth_remmy 7y ago
    ...and the full cooperation of the western elites and the government.
    - yibg 7y ago
      Probably because elites in china enjoy a huge advantage, and elites in the west would want that kind of advantage. If you got the power and money in China, with the right kind of connections you can literally get away with murder.
      - yters 7y ago
        Or CCP is a shell for communist westerners to try out their social experiments on other nations. Communism is itself a western import to China, not an indigenous worldview.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        carapace 7y ago
        I've got to congratulate you. I've been a conspiracy nut for decades but I've never heard anyone suggest that the Chinese Communists are a front for Western control. * slow clap* But no. Study the history of the Middle Kingdom. They invented totalitarian bureaucratic central government centuries ago.
        yters 7y ago
        Well, communism is not indigenous to China. It is a western idea imported by western educated Chinese intellectuals, who then indoctrinated Mao. Whether the western control is direct or indirect, it is indisputable that the CCP is not an indigenous movement. It is a product of western ideological imperialism. As a very visual example, go travel around China, visiting areas with greater and lesser CCP control. The less the control, the more elements of traditional China are around. The greater the control, the more it looks like a replica of yet another Western metropolis. I saw this very clearly when visiting Xinjing province near Tibet and hiking through the villages. The normal part of the village has traditional, hand made housing, beautiful craftsmenship, great food. Then, on the outskirts of the villages, were towering, empty apartment blocks. The CCP planned to move the villagers out of their traditional homes into these huge apartment blocks they could more easily control. So, yes, most clearly the CCP is a product of the west, not ethnic Chinese culture.
        carapace 7y ago
        Your earlier comment sounded to me like you were saying that current Western communist elites are somehow controlling the CCP, and that's why they are going along with "the corruption and subversion of Western institutions by the Chinese government." But that doesn't make sense to me because there aren't any Western communist elites anymore, are there? But if you're just pointing out the Western origin of the foundations of Chinese Communism them, yes, I agree the whole thing could be seen, from the POV of the West, as being confronted with a kind of social/political prodigal son. I'm so used to thinking of communism as an Eastern thing, but you're right (again).
    - bavell 7y ago
      Exactly. We can blame China ad nauseum but at the end of the day we are wholly responsible for allowing the situation to unfold as it has.
      - Red_Leaves_Flyy 7y ago
        Who is we? I've never made a decision that compromised my beliefs or my country to benefit China.
        NotSammyHagar 7y ago
        If we go along with companies that do that, and aren't aware of the potential and looking out for it, then everyone can be complacently complicit.
        Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
        It's intellectually dishonest to wax philosophical and paint the consumers as the problem. Powerful people have made conscious decisions to short sell their countrymen in the interest personal gain. My witting or not engagement with their company is not the problem. It is ridiculous, to the point where I must question the motives behind your comment, to offload the moral responsibility of every company onto their customers. It is impossible for every person to vet every company and their adjuncts. I did not tell Amazon to work their employees so hard that the only way they can keep their job is by wearing diapers. No. The responsibility for decisions like this rests solely on the few people at Amazon who have the power to change such conditions. Whether I shop at Amazon or not is immaterial. It is the responsibility of government to step in and try the greedy tyrants at every abusive company for their wholesale abuse of Americans. The fact that government has not arrested these abusive people is a reflection on the quality of people in position to effect real changes.
        NotSammyHagar 6y ago
        I not sure what you are getting it. My position is I should consider the way businesses I use treat their workers. If a business treats them like shit then I may likely choose to stop doing business with them, even if it inconveniences me.
- fzeroracer 7y ago
  You mean said corruption which is only possible by the willing cooperation of western corporations and institutions? Corruption isn't a one way street here. The real story isn't 'the CCP is trying to infiltrate western governments!' because everyone remotely aware of the geopolitical game already knows this. You and I aren't going to be able to do anything about this and it's just avoiding things we CAN do. Which is pressuring our local governments and companies to not engage in this obvious corruption. Which means going back to the original point of the article which is Bloomberg purposely burying stories for the sake of appeasing foreign powers.
  - seneca 7y ago
    You know, that's a very fair point. I suppose the actual surprising part is just how successful the CCP has been at this, which, as you say, requires participation. I do think it is worth highlighting that it is happening, because so many people still regard such statements as "conspiracy theory". I think I agree with you that the actual lever for combating it is pressuring our own institutions, though. As an aside, your comment is nearly dead only 3 minute after posting.
    - fzeroracer 7y ago
      It happens, some people might think I'm not hardline enough on the CCP, others might think it's not worth discussing. That's just the nature of HN posts around topics like this. As for the surprise factor, if you look at the history of the CCP and the way they use capitalism against itself it makes a lot of sense. China is a huge country worth its weight in gold to corporations, many of whom are now deeply embedded because of how much profit it generates. If they rebuke China, that means losing (a lot) of money which goes against how our system works. In this sense, it's the free market working as intended. Which is easily gamed by political powers by tossing more money and incentives into the system.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- op03 7y ago
  Western Institutions were always corrupt. How else do you get Slavery, Colonization and World Wars, Mindless consumerism and endless celeb worship. The Chinese are not perfect but neither is the West.
  - LoSboccacc 7y ago
    blatant whataboutism is blatant.
    - dang 7y ago
      Please keep canned arguments and tired tropes off HN. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20whataboutism&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
      - LoSboccacc 7y ago
        what more is there to tell? it's exactly what it is, and pointing it out is bad? should we just take this kind of trite low effort baiting and suck it up, because we're too grand to bother? fuck that, pointing out factual faults in someone argument is not a trope, it's the core of rejecting bankrupt arguments.
        detaro 7y ago
        IMHO: downvote (or flag) and move on.
  - JSavageOne 7y ago
    Yes the west is not perfect either, but let's not pretend as if Chinese citizens enjoy even a fraction of the freedom and liberty as Americans in the U.S. In one of these countries they kidnap you if you criticize the government, guess which.
    - Klinky 7y ago
- yters 7y ago
  Further irony in this article generated another comment thread discussing how criticism of CCP is silenced, which itself was detached by the HN mods. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22867474 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22867474
  - dang 7y ago
    It's time for you to stop breaking the site guidelines. I've posted four long explanations in this thread, and hundreds if not thousands of previous explanations over many years. You can easily find them by following the copious links to past moderation comments that I always include. It's fine if you don't want to read them, it's fine if you read them and disagree, it's not fine for you to continue flouting the rules here, and this has zero to do with liking or disliking China or communist parties. It's about having a site that doesn't devolve into flamewar tirefires. Please stop now.
    - incelmods 7y ago
      And China is about having a nicer homogenous society, which is why porn is blocked on the internet, criticism of government is not allowed, and muslims are killed. The worst spam on this site is you - you personally. You are not attacking people who say "fuck you douche" - you are attacking, with a cannot, who are "slightly not nice." You personally replace it with your little powertrips to make yourself fell better - no one is interested in your little paragraphs of useless crap in every thread. Look at your own links with your past moderation comments. that's spam and a huge dilution of content - and you accomplish what, removing things that are slightly not nice? the big question is, what kind of complete loser would spend hours and hours doing what you do here.
    - yters 7y ago
      As a counter to the other poster, though I do not always agree, I appreciate your efforts, dang. It is not an easy job, and probably quite thankless, but necessary.
      - dang 7y ago
- FabHK 7y ago
  > The real story here, and probably of this decade, is the corruption and subversion of Western institutions by the Chinese government. And that “real” story has been covered by the quoted NY Times article, and is not the major subject of this story. This also shows that only some western institutions are corrupted by China, including Bloomberg, but not all. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/29/world/asia/wang-jianlin-abillionaire-at-the-intersection-of-business-and-power-in-china.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/29/world/asia/wang-jianlin-a...
mcguire 7y ago
On the contrary, that is a separate issue, although an important one. This story is about the integrity of reporting from Bloomberg. An important tradition in journalism is the firewall between the money making and the news reporting parts of an organization. Yes, that firewall is breached entirely too often, but many new media organizations simply don't have the tradition at the management level. That is important to know, no matter who is applying pressure on the money side.
- apozem 7y ago
  Exactly. Bloomberg employs many fine reporters and writers, and often does good work. I like Mark Gurman, who often has accurate scoops of unannounced Apple products. However, Bloomberg should be read knowing they are owned by a company and owner that does not respect their journalistic independence. Readers should know if it comes down to journalism or their billion-dollar terminal business [1], the terminals win. [1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/bloombergs-business-in-china-has-grown-that-could-create-unprecedented-entanglements-if-he-is-elected-president/2020/01/01/71536318-1cfd-11ea-9ddd-3e0321c180e7_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/bloombergs-business-...
  - TheKarateKid 7y ago
    When Bloomberg News refused to cover any Democratic nominees because they didn't want to have to potentially cover anything negative on Michael Bloomberg, they lost most credibility with me: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/04/bloomberg-journalists-free-to-resume-normal-political-coverage.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/04/bloomberg-journalists-free-t...
    - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
      They could have tried to cover it by hiring outside reporters to talk about both sides, I've seen my local newspaper do that.
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    NY Times isn't independent either. They were long and famously a mouthpiece for the US Federal government's war machine. Most papers aren't independent.
jgalt212 7y ago
It all comes down to money and how much you want it or need it. - Sign this NDA, get the money you want or need. - Don't publish critical articles about the nomenclatura if you want our money (via terminal sales in the Chinese market)
- NotSammyHagar 7y ago
  It's actually https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomenklatura https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomenklatura
kelnos 7y ago
Agree that the China angles are important and newsworthy (though it's important to note that Forsythe's reporting was eventually published by the NYT). This article isn't about that, though: it's about companies with deep pockets trying to silence not just their (former) employees, but their employees' family members as well. Considering that companies like Bloomberg have the resources to financially ruin people if they don't comply, and seemed like they were fully ready to exercise that option, this is incredibly troubling.
adelHBN 7y ago
This is China's story of kicking out news reporters: https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-bans-all-u-s-nationals-working-for-the-wall-street-journal-new-york-times-washington-post-whose-press-credentials-end-in-2020-11584464690 https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-bans-all-u-s-nationals-wo...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

seneca 7y ago

Indeed. Making the headline here about Bloomberg smells of the exact kind of tiptoeing around the CCP that the article discusses. The real story here, and probably of this decade, is the corruption and subversion of Western institutions by the Chinese government.

phkahler 7y ago
>> The real story here, and probably of this decade, is the corruption and subversion of Western institutions by the Chinese government. ...with the full cooperation of western corporations.
- smooth_remmy 7y ago
  ...and the full cooperation of the western elites and the government.
  - yibg 7y ago
    Probably because elites in china enjoy a huge advantage, and elites in the west would want that kind of advantage. If you got the power and money in China, with the right kind of connections you can literally get away with murder.
    - yters 7y ago
      Or CCP is a shell for communist westerners to try out their social experiments on other nations. Communism is itself a western import to China, not an indigenous worldview.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - carapace 7y ago
        I've got to congratulate you. I've been a conspiracy nut for decades but I've never heard anyone suggest that the Chinese Communists are a front for Western control. * slow clap* But no. Study the history of the Middle Kingdom. They invented totalitarian bureaucratic central government centuries ago.
        yters 7y ago
        Well, communism is not indigenous to China. It is a western idea imported by western educated Chinese intellectuals, who then indoctrinated Mao. Whether the western control is direct or indirect, it is indisputable that the CCP is not an indigenous movement. It is a product of western ideological imperialism. As a very visual example, go travel around China, visiting areas with greater and lesser CCP control. The less the control, the more elements of traditional China are around. The greater the control, the more it looks like a replica of yet another Western metropolis. I saw this very clearly when visiting Xinjing province near Tibet and hiking through the villages. The normal part of the village has traditional, hand made housing, beautiful craftsmenship, great food. Then, on the outskirts of the villages, were towering, empty apartment blocks. The CCP planned to move the villagers out of their traditional homes into these huge apartment blocks they could more easily control. So, yes, most clearly the CCP is a product of the west, not ethnic Chinese culture.
        carapace 7y ago
        Your earlier comment sounded to me like you were saying that current Western communist elites are somehow controlling the CCP, and that's why they are going along with "the corruption and subversion of Western institutions by the Chinese government." But that doesn't make sense to me because there aren't any Western communist elites anymore, are there? But if you're just pointing out the Western origin of the foundations of Chinese Communism them, yes, I agree the whole thing could be seen, from the POV of the West, as being confronted with a kind of social/political prodigal son. I'm so used to thinking of communism as an Eastern thing, but you're right (again).
  - bavell 7y ago
    Exactly. We can blame China ad nauseum but at the end of the day we are wholly responsible for allowing the situation to unfold as it has.
    - Red_Leaves_Flyy 7y ago
      Who is we? I've never made a decision that compromised my beliefs or my country to benefit China.
      - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
        If we go along with companies that do that, and aren't aware of the potential and looking out for it, then everyone can be complacently complicit.
        Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
        It's intellectually dishonest to wax philosophical and paint the consumers as the problem. Powerful people have made conscious decisions to short sell their countrymen in the interest personal gain. My witting or not engagement with their company is not the problem. It is ridiculous, to the point where I must question the motives behind your comment, to offload the moral responsibility of every company onto their customers. It is impossible for every person to vet every company and their adjuncts. I did not tell Amazon to work their employees so hard that the only way they can keep their job is by wearing diapers. No. The responsibility for decisions like this rests solely on the few people at Amazon who have the power to change such conditions. Whether I shop at Amazon or not is immaterial. It is the responsibility of government to step in and try the greedy tyrants at every abusive company for their wholesale abuse of Americans. The fact that government has not arrested these abusive people is a reflection on the quality of people in position to effect real changes.
        NotSammyHagar 6y ago
        I not sure what you are getting it. My position is I should consider the way businesses I use treat their workers. If a business treats them like shit then I may likely choose to stop doing business with them, even if it inconveniences me.
fzeroracer 7y ago
You mean said corruption which is only possible by the willing cooperation of western corporations and institutions? Corruption isn't a one way street here. The real story isn't 'the CCP is trying to infiltrate western governments!' because everyone remotely aware of the geopolitical game already knows this. You and I aren't going to be able to do anything about this and it's just avoiding things we CAN do. Which is pressuring our local governments and companies to not engage in this obvious corruption. Which means going back to the original point of the article which is Bloomberg purposely burying stories for the sake of appeasing foreign powers.
- seneca 7y ago
  You know, that's a very fair point. I suppose the actual surprising part is just how successful the CCP has been at this, which, as you say, requires participation. I do think it is worth highlighting that it is happening, because so many people still regard such statements as "conspiracy theory". I think I agree with you that the actual lever for combating it is pressuring our own institutions, though. As an aside, your comment is nearly dead only 3 minute after posting.
  - fzeroracer 7y ago
    It happens, some people might think I'm not hardline enough on the CCP, others might think it's not worth discussing. That's just the nature of HN posts around topics like this. As for the surprise factor, if you look at the history of the CCP and the way they use capitalism against itself it makes a lot of sense. China is a huge country worth its weight in gold to corporations, many of whom are now deeply embedded because of how much profit it generates. If they rebuke China, that means losing (a lot) of money which goes against how our system works. In this sense, it's the free market working as intended. Which is easily gamed by political powers by tossing more money and incentives into the system.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
op03 7y ago
Western Institutions were always corrupt. How else do you get Slavery, Colonization and World Wars, Mindless consumerism and endless celeb worship. The Chinese are not perfect but neither is the West.
- LoSboccacc 7y ago
  blatant whataboutism is blatant.
  - dang 7y ago
    Please keep canned arguments and tired tropes off HN. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20whataboutism&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
    - LoSboccacc 7y ago
      what more is there to tell? it's exactly what it is, and pointing it out is bad? should we just take this kind of trite low effort baiting and suck it up, because we're too grand to bother? fuck that, pointing out factual faults in someone argument is not a trope, it's the core of rejecting bankrupt arguments.
      - detaro 7y ago
        IMHO: downvote (or flag) and move on.
- JSavageOne 7y ago
  Yes the west is not perfect either, but let's not pretend as if Chinese citizens enjoy even a fraction of the freedom and liberty as Americans in the U.S. In one of these countries they kidnap you if you criticize the government, guess which.
  - Klinky 7y ago
yters 7y ago
Further irony in this article generated another comment thread discussing how criticism of CCP is silenced, which itself was detached by the HN mods. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22867474 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22867474
- dang 7y ago
  It's time for you to stop breaking the site guidelines. I've posted four long explanations in this thread, and hundreds if not thousands of previous explanations over many years. You can easily find them by following the copious links to past moderation comments that I always include. It's fine if you don't want to read them, it's fine if you read them and disagree, it's not fine for you to continue flouting the rules here, and this has zero to do with liking or disliking China or communist parties. It's about having a site that doesn't devolve into flamewar tirefires. Please stop now.
  - incelmods 7y ago
    And China is about having a nicer homogenous society, which is why porn is blocked on the internet, criticism of government is not allowed, and muslims are killed. The worst spam on this site is you - you personally. You are not attacking people who say "fuck you douche" - you are attacking, with a cannot, who are "slightly not nice." You personally replace it with your little powertrips to make yourself fell better - no one is interested in your little paragraphs of useless crap in every thread. Look at your own links with your past moderation comments. that's spam and a huge dilution of content - and you accomplish what, removing things that are slightly not nice? the big question is, what kind of complete loser would spend hours and hours doing what you do here.
  - yters 7y ago
    As a counter to the other poster, though I do not always agree, I appreciate your efforts, dang. It is not an easy job, and probably quite thankless, but necessary.
    - dang 7y ago
FabHK 7y ago
> The real story here, and probably of this decade, is the corruption and subversion of Western institutions by the Chinese government. And that “real” story has been covered by the quoted NY Times article, and is not the major subject of this story. This also shows that only some western institutions are corrupted by China, including Bloomberg, but not all. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/29/world/asia/wang-jianlin-abillionaire-at-the-intersection-of-business-and-power-in-china.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/29/world/asia/wang-jianlin-a...

mcguire 7y ago

On the contrary, that is a separate issue, although an important one. This story is about the integrity of reporting from Bloomberg. An important tradition in journalism is the firewall between the money making and the news reporting parts of an organization. Yes, that firewall is breached entirely too often, but many new media organizations simply don't have the tradition at the management level. That is important to know, no matter who is applying pressure on the money side.

apozem 7y ago
Exactly. Bloomberg employs many fine reporters and writers, and often does good work. I like Mark Gurman, who often has accurate scoops of unannounced Apple products. However, Bloomberg should be read knowing they are owned by a company and owner that does not respect their journalistic independence. Readers should know if it comes down to journalism or their billion-dollar terminal business [1], the terminals win. [1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/bloombergs-business-in-china-has-grown-that-could-create-unprecedented-entanglements-if-he-is-elected-president/2020/01/01/71536318-1cfd-11ea-9ddd-3e0321c180e7_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/bloombergs-business-...
- TheKarateKid 7y ago
  When Bloomberg News refused to cover any Democratic nominees because they didn't want to have to potentially cover anything negative on Michael Bloomberg, they lost most credibility with me: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/04/bloomberg-journalists-free-to-resume-normal-political-coverage.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/04/bloomberg-journalists-free-t...
  - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
    They could have tried to cover it by hiring outside reporters to talk about both sides, I've seen my local newspaper do that.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  NY Times isn't independent either. They were long and famously a mouthpiece for the US Federal government's war machine. Most papers aren't independent.

jgalt212 7y ago

It all comes down to money and how much you want it or need it. - Sign this NDA, get the money you want or need. - Don't publish critical articles about the nomenclatura if you want our money (via terminal sales in the Chinese market)

NotSammyHagar 7y ago
It's actually https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomenklatura https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomenklatura

kelnos 7y ago

Agree that the China angles are important and newsworthy (though it's important to note that Forsythe's reporting was eventually published by the NYT). This article isn't about that, though: it's about companies with deep pockets trying to silence not just their (former) employees, but their employees' family members as well. Considering that companies like Bloomberg have the resources to financially ruin people if they don't comply, and seemed like they were fully ready to exercise that option, this is incredibly troubling.

adelHBN 7y ago

This is China's story of kicking out news reporters: https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-bans-all-u-s-nationals-working-for-the-wall-street-journal-new-york-times-washington-post-whose-press-credentials-end-in-2020-11584464690 https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-bans-all-u-s-nationals-wo...