7 ms·

Ironically Trump refused to "shutdown" the States a decision he deferred to the Governors.

grey-area 7y ago
I'm not sure why this is downvoted, as it is correct. https://apnews.com/c90b24e60a4853cebe96ec995b626f9b https://apnews.com/c90b24e60a4853cebe96ec995b626f9b
danhak 7y ago
Yes, he wanted to dodge responsibility for the unpleasant job of shutting things down. Now he wants to enjoy positive publicity for opening things back up.
- RandomTisk 7y ago
  He wanted to shut down travel from China in January, something he got reamed for politically by the media and the left. Damned if you do and all that.
  - danhak 7y ago
    I'm not able to find examples of that. Can you point to any mainstream media outlets "reaming" him over that decision?
    - Thorondor 7y ago
      Not the person you're replying to, but here are a few examples. CNN: "Experts say travel restrictions the Trump administration put in place to stop the novel coronavirus from spreading could have unintended consequences that undermine that effort." (https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/07/health/coronavirus-travel-ban/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/07/health/coronavirus-travel-ban...) The Atlantic: "Guiding Trump’s response is a hardheaded nationalism... Critics from WHO and elsewhere have said the bans are unnecessary and could generate a racist backlash against Chinese people." (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/02/trump-response-coronavirus/606610/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/02/trump-r...)
  - roywiggins 7y ago
    He let who knows how many Americans back in from China without testing or quarantining them. Not much of a travel ban.
    - johncearls 7y ago
      Quarantining is a fancy word for arrest, with zero cause. There were no "tests" at the time. And finally, thankfully, it is illegal to refuse an American citizen entry to the United States.
      - kelnos 7y ago
        A quarantine wouldn't be refusing entry; entry is allowed, but then you must remain isolated for a certain period of time. > Quarantining is a fancy word for arrest, with zero cause. I just don't know what to do with statements like these. If you truly believe that there is never any grounds for a health-related quarantine, then I don't think you're going to be able to have a productive discussion on this with most people here; your fundamental beliefs are just too far outside the norm (and outside reality, but that's another issue).
      - roywiggins 7y ago
        The cruise ship evacuees were involuntarily quarantined on military bases. Quarantine in America is not new. https://www.lawfareblog.com/long-history-coercive-health-responses-american-law https://www.lawfareblog.com/long-history-coercive-health-res...
      - ummwhat 7y ago
        >Quarantining is a fancy word for arrest, with zero cause. There is probable cause. You probably have the virus. Spreading it around is negligent manslaughter. This court sentences you to two weeks in a hotel.
        roywiggins 7y ago
        That's not quite right. Quarantine is a kind of civil detention. You have habeus corpus rights but you aren't accused of a crime and the probable cause standard doesn't apply. There's a standard- it's not zilch- but it's not the same as criminal detention.
  - Invictus0 7y ago
    Can you provide any source for criticism from the left on this decision? I only found this: > Although Democratic leaders and Democratic presidential candidates have been highly critical of Trump’s response to the coronavirus, we couldn’t find any examples of them directly and clearly criticizing the travel restrictions. [0]: https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/the-facts-on-trumps-travel-restrictions/ https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/the-facts-on-trumps-travel...
    - RandomTisk 7y ago
      My Twitter timeline was full of people claiming xenophobia and racism for most of February and some of March, some with claims he was distracting from his impeachment. There was a coordinated effort by some jouralists to smear Trump as xenophobic and racist for what he was trying to do. Today they're saying he didn't do enough. There were many stories that were essentially down playing the virus and dog whistling to readers about Trump being a racist/xenophobic for his early actions. Edit: added video showing the media downplaying COVID-19 at late as March 3rd [3]. [0]https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/01/31/how-our-brains-make-coronavirus-seem-scarier-than-it-is/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/01/31/how-our-br... [1]https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/02/03/why-we-should-be-wary-an-aggressive-government-response-coronavirus/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/02/03/why-we-sho... [2]https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/world/europe/coronavirus-stigma-europe.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/world/europe/coronavirus-... [3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=wVDPVBZF2Xg&feature=emb_logo https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=wVDPVBZF2Xg&...
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      Ya, much of this controversy seems to have been made up by the right. Typical gas lighting, funny thing is I remember none of this actually happening at the time, banning travel china was mostly non-controversial outside of a niche. Maybe twitter?
  - standardUser 7y ago
    That is one tiny step in response to a crisis that requires dozens of quick, bold steps. If he gets one point for decisive action and 20 points for delaying, deferring, muddling and contradicting, how much credit has he really earned?
  - kitotik 7y ago
    Also, travelers from Italy and Spain have been able to enter quite freely.
    - cjhopman 7y ago
      Yeah, the west coast's virus outbreak is primarily traced to European sources, the bigger east coast one probably more so (but idk the data to support that). The China travel ban was not an effective measure of control, and experts knew that it wouldn't be. So either (1) whoever did it didn't listen to their experts or (2) it was intended to punish China, not as an effective measure of control.
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    They actually didn't though. The only thing I can find negative on Trump's travel ban is an independent opinion piece on NyT: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/05/opinion/china-travel-coronavirus.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/05/opinion/china-travel-coro... (2/5/20) And even then, the criticism was of the form: > Valid arguments may exist for shutting down the world to travelers originating in China — and shutting down China to the world — as a reasonable public health response. But the World Health Organization explicitly did not advise that any restriction of trade or travel was necessary when it declared a Public Health Emergency of International Concern last week, and it still doesn’t. Instead, it has called for exit screening in international airports and domestic hubs in China. What Trump did get a lot of flack on was travel banning countries like Nigeria at the same time, completely unrelated to the coronavirus: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/04/opinion/trump-travel-ban-nigeria.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/04/opinion/trump-travel-ban-... Trump and his supporters have made up much of this narrative on their own without any actual action on the left, e.g. see: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/mar/27/donald-trump/fact-checking-whether-biden-called-trump-xenophobi/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/mar/27/donald-tru...
  - throwaway_USD 7y ago
    If you have watched any of the daily Coronavirus Task Force Press Briefings you will no doubt have heard Trump championing "If I didn’t do that, we would’ve had hundreds of thousands more people dying"... To my understanding the ban only stopped direct flights from China. In other words flights to china were still able to travel everywhere else in the World and then from those layovers the Chinese were still able to fly into the US indirectly. The virus made its way to US anyway and when it got out of hand the healthcare system was overwhelmed, the economy shutdown, supply chains broke down, we reached essentially 20% unemployment overnight...so I am not sure how his decision saved lives, it seems to me, his travel ban only delayed the virus...so assuming the travel ban wasn't put in place it seems to me the virus would have just been on our radar sooner and we would have done the same poor reactive responses. In other words, from the time of the ban in January to Trumps "15 days to slow the spread" how many test kits were ordered? How many N95 masks were ordered? How many ventilators? How much PPE? What did Trump do to prepare for the virus and save lives beyond travel bans, because it seems our healthcare systems were not prepared/supplied nor was FEMA prepared and mobilized until March. Can you explain how his ban saved lives as opposed to delayed the virus?
- Fjolsvith 7y ago
  No, he wanted to avoid being called a dictator for shutting things down.
seanmcdirmid 7y ago
Honest question: did Trump have the legal authority to shutdown the states even if he wanted to? I thought this decision was always up to the governors themselves, and that the federal government didn't have any authority to ask for a shut down within each state.
- r00fus 7y ago
  If the President has no legal authority to shutdown the states, he has no legal authority to restrain opening them up either.
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    Yes, that is my thinking also.

I'm not sure why this is downvoted, as it is correct. https://apnews.com/c90b24e60a4853cebe96ec995b626f9b https://apnews.com/c90b24e60a4853cebe96ec995b626f9b

danhak 7y ago

Yes, he wanted to dodge responsibility for the unpleasant job of shutting things down. Now he wants to enjoy positive publicity for opening things back up.

RandomTisk 7y ago
He wanted to shut down travel from China in January, something he got reamed for politically by the media and the left. Damned if you do and all that.
- danhak 7y ago
  I'm not able to find examples of that. Can you point to any mainstream media outlets "reaming" him over that decision?
  - Thorondor 7y ago
    Not the person you're replying to, but here are a few examples. CNN: "Experts say travel restrictions the Trump administration put in place to stop the novel coronavirus from spreading could have unintended consequences that undermine that effort." (https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/07/health/coronavirus-travel-ban/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/07/health/coronavirus-travel-ban...) The Atlantic: "Guiding Trump’s response is a hardheaded nationalism... Critics from WHO and elsewhere have said the bans are unnecessary and could generate a racist backlash against Chinese people." (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/02/trump-response-coronavirus/606610/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/02/trump-r...)
- roywiggins 7y ago
  He let who knows how many Americans back in from China without testing or quarantining them. Not much of a travel ban.
  - johncearls 7y ago
    Quarantining is a fancy word for arrest, with zero cause. There were no "tests" at the time. And finally, thankfully, it is illegal to refuse an American citizen entry to the United States.
    - kelnos 7y ago
      A quarantine wouldn't be refusing entry; entry is allowed, but then you must remain isolated for a certain period of time. > Quarantining is a fancy word for arrest, with zero cause. I just don't know what to do with statements like these. If you truly believe that there is never any grounds for a health-related quarantine, then I don't think you're going to be able to have a productive discussion on this with most people here; your fundamental beliefs are just too far outside the norm (and outside reality, but that's another issue).
    - roywiggins 7y ago
      The cruise ship evacuees were involuntarily quarantined on military bases. Quarantine in America is not new. https://www.lawfareblog.com/long-history-coercive-health-responses-american-law https://www.lawfareblog.com/long-history-coercive-health-res...
    - ummwhat 7y ago
      >Quarantining is a fancy word for arrest, with zero cause. There is probable cause. You probably have the virus. Spreading it around is negligent manslaughter. This court sentences you to two weeks in a hotel.
      - roywiggins 7y ago
        That's not quite right. Quarantine is a kind of civil detention. You have habeus corpus rights but you aren't accused of a crime and the probable cause standard doesn't apply. There's a standard- it's not zilch- but it's not the same as criminal detention.
- Invictus0 7y ago
  Can you provide any source for criticism from the left on this decision? I only found this: > Although Democratic leaders and Democratic presidential candidates have been highly critical of Trump’s response to the coronavirus, we couldn’t find any examples of them directly and clearly criticizing the travel restrictions. [0]: https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/the-facts-on-trumps-travel-restrictions/ https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/the-facts-on-trumps-travel...
  - RandomTisk 7y ago
    My Twitter timeline was full of people claiming xenophobia and racism for most of February and some of March, some with claims he was distracting from his impeachment. There was a coordinated effort by some jouralists to smear Trump as xenophobic and racist for what he was trying to do. Today they're saying he didn't do enough. There were many stories that were essentially down playing the virus and dog whistling to readers about Trump being a racist/xenophobic for his early actions. Edit: added video showing the media downplaying COVID-19 at late as March 3rd [3]. [0]https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/01/31/how-our-brains-make-coronavirus-seem-scarier-than-it-is/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/01/31/how-our-br... [1]https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/02/03/why-we-should-be-wary-an-aggressive-government-response-coronavirus/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/02/03/why-we-sho... [2]https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/world/europe/coronavirus-stigma-europe.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/world/europe/coronavirus-... [3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=wVDPVBZF2Xg&feature=emb_logo https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=wVDPVBZF2Xg&...
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    Ya, much of this controversy seems to have been made up by the right. Typical gas lighting, funny thing is I remember none of this actually happening at the time, banning travel china was mostly non-controversial outside of a niche. Maybe twitter?
- standardUser 7y ago
  That is one tiny step in response to a crisis that requires dozens of quick, bold steps. If he gets one point for decisive action and 20 points for delaying, deferring, muddling and contradicting, how much credit has he really earned?
- kitotik 7y ago
  Also, travelers from Italy and Spain have been able to enter quite freely.
  - cjhopman 7y ago
    Yeah, the west coast's virus outbreak is primarily traced to European sources, the bigger east coast one probably more so (but idk the data to support that). The China travel ban was not an effective measure of control, and experts knew that it wouldn't be. So either (1) whoever did it didn't listen to their experts or (2) it was intended to punish China, not as an effective measure of control.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  They actually didn't though. The only thing I can find negative on Trump's travel ban is an independent opinion piece on NyT: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/05/opinion/china-travel-coronavirus.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/05/opinion/china-travel-coro... (2/5/20) And even then, the criticism was of the form: > Valid arguments may exist for shutting down the world to travelers originating in China — and shutting down China to the world — as a reasonable public health response. But the World Health Organization explicitly did not advise that any restriction of trade or travel was necessary when it declared a Public Health Emergency of International Concern last week, and it still doesn’t. Instead, it has called for exit screening in international airports and domestic hubs in China. What Trump did get a lot of flack on was travel banning countries like Nigeria at the same time, completely unrelated to the coronavirus: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/04/opinion/trump-travel-ban-nigeria.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/04/opinion/trump-travel-ban-... Trump and his supporters have made up much of this narrative on their own without any actual action on the left, e.g. see: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/mar/27/donald-trump/fact-checking-whether-biden-called-trump-xenophobi/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/mar/27/donald-tru...
- throwaway_USD 7y ago
  If you have watched any of the daily Coronavirus Task Force Press Briefings you will no doubt have heard Trump championing "If I didn’t do that, we would’ve had hundreds of thousands more people dying"... To my understanding the ban only stopped direct flights from China. In other words flights to china were still able to travel everywhere else in the World and then from those layovers the Chinese were still able to fly into the US indirectly. The virus made its way to US anyway and when it got out of hand the healthcare system was overwhelmed, the economy shutdown, supply chains broke down, we reached essentially 20% unemployment overnight...so I am not sure how his decision saved lives, it seems to me, his travel ban only delayed the virus...so assuming the travel ban wasn't put in place it seems to me the virus would have just been on our radar sooner and we would have done the same poor reactive responses. In other words, from the time of the ban in January to Trumps "15 days to slow the spread" how many test kits were ordered? How many N95 masks were ordered? How many ventilators? How much PPE? What did Trump do to prepare for the virus and save lives beyond travel bans, because it seems our healthcare systems were not prepared/supplied nor was FEMA prepared and mobilized until March. Can you explain how his ban saved lives as opposed to delayed the virus?
Fjolsvith 7y ago
No, he wanted to avoid being called a dictator for shutting things down.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago

Honest question: did Trump have the legal authority to shutdown the states even if he wanted to? I thought this decision was always up to the governors themselves, and that the federal government didn't have any authority to ask for a shut down within each state.

r00fus 7y ago
If the President has no legal authority to shutdown the states, he has no legal authority to restrain opening them up either.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  Yes, that is my thinking also.