6 ms·

TclSqueak – IDE for Tcl

78 points by dmux 7y ago

AbuAssar 7y ago
I suggest writing extensions for vscode to provide tcl language server and debug server.
- zentiggr 7y ago
  VScode seems like the MVP of IDEs to add support to. I'd go for community IDEA
WesBrownSQL 7y ago
Last commit was 5 years ago...
- sitkack 7y ago
  It must have reached perfection.
shanemhansen 7y ago
This looks like a delightful environment. I'm going to put it on my list of things to try out.
sedatk 7y ago
What's the use case of TCL nowadays? I thought the language was fading out due to emergence of alternatives like Lua and Python, despite how much I love it.
- emptysands 7y ago
  My accounting system is written in Tk/TCL. Works well.
  - slim 7y ago
    what is it?
- ravila4 7y ago
  In science, NAMD, one of the most popular molecular dynamics simulation packages, and VMD, a molecular visualization tool are scripted in TCL.
- stefanpie 7y ago
  I think almost every FPGA vendor development tool has integrated tcl support which is basically the standard for scripting in that industry. Vender lock-in exasperates the trend.
  - sokoloff 7y ago
    It might exasperate the users, but it exacerbates the trend.
- lmm 7y ago
  It's still lighter and easier to embed than Python. Lua has sort of displaced it for "script" files but not so much for "config" files, as artificial as that distinction is; also I'm not sure how much Lua has caught on as an interactive embedded prompt. And in any case a lot of existing systems feel no need to migrate. And honestly it's still a pretty nice language, as much as I've mostly lost interest in untyped languages. I've been thinking about trying to implement it (or a cut-down version) on GraalVM.
  - cmrdporcupine 7y ago
    So actually this is one thing I found when embedding Lua recently in a project was that it doesn't really have a REPL. There's projects to add one, but it is not as eval-loop friendly as a scheme or a Tcl.
  - sitkack 6y ago
    > implement it (or a cut-down version) on GraalVM I encourage you to do this.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  MacPorts is all Tcl.
- sprash 7y ago
  Because of the inherent "everything is s String" mantra tcl/tk is to this day by far the best language to rapidly build GUI front ends for CLI applications (which generally spit out strings to stdout). In our company I recently ported some of the MS Access databases to sqlite + tcl/tk as a side project which turned out to be a great decision. Much higher reliability, productivity and finally versioning with git. I was impressed how quickly you can put together a GUI with tcl/tk. And they look really great on Windows and Mac. The default "Motiv" style look on Linux looks kind of dated though.
- fithisux 7y ago
  If you need to create a performant gui app for something very fast, it is no match. It is unfortunate that it has not been embraced by the scientific community. The only benefit of Python + (random) gui layer is that you write something in python and you need to also provide gui. You need to write it with what python provides to stay unified. But that is the only benefit.
  - johnr2 7y ago
    > You need to write it with what python provides to stay unified. Like TkInter, which uses tcl/tk?
- non-entity 7y ago
  Does the OS shipped with Cisco networking equipment still have a tcl interpreter?
- dmux 7y ago
  It works just fine for web-backend development.
- wrenky 7y ago
  HUGE use in really niche spaces. FPGA development uses it because of really embedable/flexible syntax, and a lot of software integration testing uses it for things like Expect (whose Tcl implementation is still far and away the best).
- djsumdog 7y ago
  TCL was the language used with F5's BigIP for writing custom rules on their load balancer. I' haven't used BigIP in years, so I'm not sure if they still do. This was the last big thing I wrote in TCL and I still use it to this day: https://battlepenguin.com/tech/scripts/lnsponge/ https://battlepenguin.com/tech/scripts/lnsponge/ TCL is a neat language, but these days if I need scripts, I'll usually turn to python or ruby, plus they have a lot of libraries and packages. Like others have said, it's used in a lot of stuff where you need to embed a scripting language for extensions, similar to Lua.
hoistbypetard 7y ago
I looked at the screenshot and thought "that's a nice, warm, fuzzy reminder of the late 90s state of the art." Then I scrolled down and saw the first bullet: "modern UI" I don't do much with tcl, but if I wanted an IDE for it that felt modern, I'd probably look at Komodo first: https://www.activestate.com/products/komodo-ide/ https://www.activestate.com/products/komodo-ide/
- craigsmansion 7y ago
  The IDE you linked to seems to be proprietary software.
  - hoistbypetard 7y ago
    I'm aware that it's proprietary. I thought it was also available gratis for individual developers.
    - craigsmansion 7y ago
      In a thread about a free software IDE for Tcl, which might mean a lot of exposure for what seems like a small project, you write what amounts to how you don't like the look of it and promote a proprietary alternative. I don't feel that's right.
      - hoistbypetard 7y ago
        It's a small project that hasn't seen a commit since 2015: https://github.com/xdobry/tclsqueak/commits/master https://github.com/xdobry/tclsqueak/commits/master Dormant projects do not really benefit from exposure. I also didn't say I don't like the look. Quite the opposite. It is a late 90s early 00s kind of look that I personally find appealing. I wouldn't call it "modern" however. Sorry you don't feel that's right, though.
  - andrewshadura 7y ago
    Komodo Edit, though, is free software. https://github.com/Komodo/KomodoEdit https://github.com/Komodo/KomodoEdit
_asummers 7y ago
I'm of the opinion no one should be writing new IDEs anymore for languages and should instead be writing good language servers for the language server protocol (and it's debugging friends). The duplication of effort for each IDE + language pair is just too large.
- badsectoracula 7y ago
  This creates an issue where the LSP is the bottleneck between what the language can express and what functionality the IDE can provide. For example there is absolutely no way anything based on LSP can provide the same level of integration as what Lazarus has for Free Pascal and its LCL framework. (also LSP essentially working by running a server locally that has to parse and emit JSON messages and an editor that also has to connect to a local server and parse and emit JSON messages is not exactly ideal when you care about keeping things simple and performant)
  - kps 7y ago
    As far as I can tell, LSP can't even distinguish between a read and a write — it's not as useful as cscope 30 years ago.
forgotpwd16 7y ago
In what way the "inspired by Smalltalk programming environments" makes it different than other development environments?
- badsectoracula 7y ago
  My guess is the UI. It looks very much like the class browser you'd find in a Smalltalk environment.
- dmux 7y ago
  Nearly everything in Tcl can be inspected at runtime: the source code for procedures (and their arguments), classes that have been defined, methods, etc. Tcl can be made to appear as if it was "image" based rather than file based. This project taps into that.

78 points by dmux 7y ago

AbuAssar 7y ago

I suggest writing extensions for vscode to provide tcl language server and debug server.

zentiggr 7y ago
VScode seems like the MVP of IDEs to add support to. I'd go for community IDEA

WesBrownSQL 7y ago

Last commit was 5 years ago...

sitkack 7y ago
It must have reached perfection.

shanemhansen 7y ago

This looks like a delightful environment. I'm going to put it on my list of things to try out.

sedatk 7y ago

What's the use case of TCL nowadays? I thought the language was fading out due to emergence of alternatives like Lua and Python, despite how much I love it.

emptysands 7y ago
My accounting system is written in Tk/TCL. Works well.
- slim 7y ago
  what is it?
ravila4 7y ago
In science, NAMD, one of the most popular molecular dynamics simulation packages, and VMD, a molecular visualization tool are scripted in TCL.
stefanpie 7y ago
I think almost every FPGA vendor development tool has integrated tcl support which is basically the standard for scripting in that industry. Vender lock-in exasperates the trend.
- sokoloff 7y ago
  It might exasperate the users, but it exacerbates the trend.
lmm 7y ago
It's still lighter and easier to embed than Python. Lua has sort of displaced it for "script" files but not so much for "config" files, as artificial as that distinction is; also I'm not sure how much Lua has caught on as an interactive embedded prompt. And in any case a lot of existing systems feel no need to migrate. And honestly it's still a pretty nice language, as much as I've mostly lost interest in untyped languages. I've been thinking about trying to implement it (or a cut-down version) on GraalVM.
- cmrdporcupine 7y ago
  So actually this is one thing I found when embedding Lua recently in a project was that it doesn't really have a REPL. There's projects to add one, but it is not as eval-loop friendly as a scheme or a Tcl.
- sitkack 6y ago
  > implement it (or a cut-down version) on GraalVM I encourage you to do this.
saagarjha 7y ago
MacPorts is all Tcl.
sprash 7y ago
Because of the inherent "everything is s String" mantra tcl/tk is to this day by far the best language to rapidly build GUI front ends for CLI applications (which generally spit out strings to stdout). In our company I recently ported some of the MS Access databases to sqlite + tcl/tk as a side project which turned out to be a great decision. Much higher reliability, productivity and finally versioning with git. I was impressed how quickly you can put together a GUI with tcl/tk. And they look really great on Windows and Mac. The default "Motiv" style look on Linux looks kind of dated though.
fithisux 7y ago
If you need to create a performant gui app for something very fast, it is no match. It is unfortunate that it has not been embraced by the scientific community. The only benefit of Python + (random) gui layer is that you write something in python and you need to also provide gui. You need to write it with what python provides to stay unified. But that is the only benefit.
- johnr2 7y ago
  > You need to write it with what python provides to stay unified. Like TkInter, which uses tcl/tk?
non-entity 7y ago
Does the OS shipped with Cisco networking equipment still have a tcl interpreter?
dmux 7y ago
It works just fine for web-backend development.
wrenky 7y ago
HUGE use in really niche spaces. FPGA development uses it because of really embedable/flexible syntax, and a lot of software integration testing uses it for things like Expect (whose Tcl implementation is still far and away the best).
djsumdog 7y ago
TCL was the language used with F5's BigIP for writing custom rules on their load balancer. I' haven't used BigIP in years, so I'm not sure if they still do. This was the last big thing I wrote in TCL and I still use it to this day: https://battlepenguin.com/tech/scripts/lnsponge/ https://battlepenguin.com/tech/scripts/lnsponge/ TCL is a neat language, but these days if I need scripts, I'll usually turn to python or ruby, plus they have a lot of libraries and packages. Like others have said, it's used in a lot of stuff where you need to embed a scripting language for extensions, similar to Lua.

hoistbypetard 7y ago

I looked at the screenshot and thought "that's a nice, warm, fuzzy reminder of the late 90s state of the art." Then I scrolled down and saw the first bullet: "modern UI" I don't do much with tcl, but if I wanted an IDE for it that felt modern, I'd probably look at Komodo first: https://www.activestate.com/products/komodo-ide/ https://www.activestate.com/products/komodo-ide/

craigsmansion 7y ago
The IDE you linked to seems to be proprietary software.
- hoistbypetard 7y ago
  I'm aware that it's proprietary. I thought it was also available gratis for individual developers.
  - craigsmansion 7y ago
    In a thread about a free software IDE for Tcl, which might mean a lot of exposure for what seems like a small project, you write what amounts to how you don't like the look of it and promote a proprietary alternative. I don't feel that's right.
    - hoistbypetard 7y ago
      It's a small project that hasn't seen a commit since 2015: https://github.com/xdobry/tclsqueak/commits/master https://github.com/xdobry/tclsqueak/commits/master Dormant projects do not really benefit from exposure. I also didn't say I don't like the look. Quite the opposite. It is a late 90s early 00s kind of look that I personally find appealing. I wouldn't call it "modern" however. Sorry you don't feel that's right, though.
- andrewshadura 7y ago
  Komodo Edit, though, is free software. https://github.com/Komodo/KomodoEdit https://github.com/Komodo/KomodoEdit

_asummers 7y ago

I'm of the opinion no one should be writing new IDEs anymore for languages and should instead be writing good language servers for the language server protocol (and it's debugging friends). The duplication of effort for each IDE + language pair is just too large.

badsectoracula 7y ago
This creates an issue where the LSP is the bottleneck between what the language can express and what functionality the IDE can provide. For example there is absolutely no way anything based on LSP can provide the same level of integration as what Lazarus has for Free Pascal and its LCL framework. (also LSP essentially working by running a server locally that has to parse and emit JSON messages and an editor that also has to connect to a local server and parse and emit JSON messages is not exactly ideal when you care about keeping things simple and performant)
- kps 7y ago
  As far as I can tell, LSP can't even distinguish between a read and a write — it's not as useful as cscope 30 years ago.

forgotpwd16 7y ago

In what way the "inspired by Smalltalk programming environments" makes it different than other development environments?

badsectoracula 7y ago
My guess is the UI. It looks very much like the class browser you'd find in a Smalltalk environment.
dmux 7y ago
Nearly everything in Tcl can be inspected at runtime: the source code for procedures (and their arguments), classes that have been defined, methods, etc. Tcl can be made to appear as if it was "image" based rather than file based. This project taps into that.