7 ms·

One can only shake his head when you hear about how things work in America. Why are you so hostile against each other and/or the weaker/younger/non-wealthy peo

One can only shake his head when you hear about how things work in America. Why are you so hostile against each other and/or the weaker/younger/non-wealthy people? In most of Europe, education is free. You'll obviously have to take care of your own cost of living, but there are no real fees where you come out of your education and have 100k in debt. Why do things in America work so different? It's not (yet) a third world country, it could probably easily finance things like these for its residents. But instead you milk your youth, leave them with debt and shrug your shoulders about things like these? Why? (free = Universities in Germany have what is called "Semesterbeitrag". This varies but for my university it was like 700 €/year and you would get free transportation in NRW with that and more benefits.)

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
simfoo 7y ago
My guess: It is politically wanted to have graduates that will take any job because they are deep into debt with no chance of getting rid of it through bankruptcy. This pressure keeps wages down and "motivation" up.
- delusional 7y ago
  From a purely free market perspective, it makes sense. getting educated takes resources, that education then has to earn you more resources in the long run, meaning you can pay off the loan. That ignores all the sociatal benefits from having a more well educated poopulous, and I like free education, but you can't deny there's some internal logic there.
battery_cowboy 7y ago
I don't agree with this sentiment and I believe it's based on a big lie, but here's what some of the "average" Americans might think: "I'm an American, my ancestors for generations have pioneered the frontier and could only rely on themselves. I don't like the idea of helping some lazy bum get their art degree on my dime, so I'm against free college. I'm a working man, and my son will be too, or he'll get a degree as an engineer or scientist and be able to make enough money to pay his loans. My daughter will get married and have babies. That's the way it's been and America has been awesome forever, so I don't see why we should follow Europe, who has so many countries in debt crisis that couldn't pull themselves up like America did."
- redis_mlc 7y ago
  It's not a big lie, it's more of an American frame of mind. What you described is called the "Just World" fallacy - you get what you deserve. Or a more modern term, "I got mine." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis The US founders, the Pilgrims, were (religious) puritans, and that mindset carries on until today. > you milk your youth Politicians and the oligarchy are very concerned about personal moral hazard, not so much about corporate moral hazard. So youth get non-dischargeable student debt, and companies get bailouts. (Since most bills are written by lobbyists, not elected officials, it would be very interesting to see who wrote that education bill.) How deep is the fear of personal moral hazard? There were bread riots and Washington, DC was occupied by rioters in the Great Depression after Washington refused to provide aid in case, "everybody would just stop farming." As Warren Buffett said, "[The war between the poor and rich in America is over. You lost.]" (Note that he is one of the few billionaires who has gone on record about this, because he knows there's a problem with 15% capital gains tax rate for investors like him, when employees like his secretary pay around 40%.) > you come out of your education and have 100k in debt. Oh, and it's 200k in school debt, and no health care. And buy a car if you want to get around. Rock on! More seriously, the US lacks a coherent policy on anything (healthcare, education, infrastructure, etc.) So it's an Oliver Twist-style existence for the bottom 99%. You can probably use this search filter to find intelligent discussion about US politics, "no policy" plus "US" and your favorite topic. This isn't a Trump problem, it's a "too many lawyers in Washington" problem. If you want to read astonishing truthfulness by politicians today, read anything by top Malaysian leader, Dr. Mahathir, or the investor Tan Teng Boo: https://www.thesundaily.my/business/foreigners-exremely-cautious-on-investing-in-malaysia-says-expert-YE2024771 https://www.thesundaily.my/business/foreigners-exremely-caut... How's that for transparency and honesty? Every conversation with those two is a roadmap for progress for their country. So it is possible.
- nabla9 7y ago
  This is basically agricultural era thinking peppered with laissez-faire ideology. In 1700-hundreads you could drop average household with some seeds and few tools into the forest and they would go on. If there was village around with 50-100 people their productivity would probably double. Connected to organized state and trade it might increase even more. Today >95% of the value from work comes from the infrastructure and society around people. Marginal improvements to aggregate education levels improve aggregate incomes and productivity. If your country has higher educated lazy bums than some other country, it creates value and wealth and you are freed to do marginally more demanding and valuable work for yourself. Getting even lazy bums go trough college can easily flip into net positive due to slightly better lifetime earning and health.
firebacon 7y ago
The other difference of course is that in Germany, only a fairly small proportion of high school students is even allowed to go to Uni. People that were not placed into Gymnasium at age 8 are set on a course where, once they turn 18, do not get to go free Uni; they simply are not allowed to go to Uni at all! Also the problem of cost of living while studying isn't exactly trivial. Accommodation, food and participating in general student life all are things that cost a lot of money. You will need at least 1k-1.5k EUR net per month, which means earning 2k or more gross. That's not exactly easy to do on the side, since most degree programmes are full-time only; you are expected to put your 40 hours a week towards the degree and not some other job to finance yourself. When polled, 87% of students answered that they were dependent on financial support from their parents and 12% received state-sponsored loans [1]. So let's not kid ourselves. The question of whether you will go to Uni or not, in Germany, also depends to a very large degree on who and how wealthy your parents are. Statistically speaking, your chance to go to Uni is 27% if your parents are blue collar workers. It is 79% if your parents also hold academic degrees. If your parents have no professional training at all, the probability is 12%. [2] So maybe we should focus on our own issues first ;) [1] https://www.sueddeutsche.de/bildung/studienfinanzierung-so-koennen-studenten-ihr-studium-finanzieren-1.3172337 https://www.sueddeutsche.de/bildung/studienfinanzierung-so-k... [2] https://www.forschung-und-lehre.de/lehre/nichtakademiker-knapp-ein-drittel-der-kinder-studiert-597/ https://www.forschung-und-lehre.de/lehre/nichtakademiker-kna...
- notechback 7y ago
  It's a very complex issue with many elements. E.g. the EU has been critising Germany's early 'tracking' on one or the other path for decades, some changes have taken place with a new school type introduced a few years ago, but getting schools/cities/.. to switch to this has been an uphill battle. While German students are expected to finance themselves, those from low income families get financial support (a loan with very favourable terms that only has to be paid back if the student reaches a certain income threshold after their studies). The problem that low socio-economic background youth don't study is not primarily a financial issue; much more a matter of aspirations and the tracking you mention. There are ways to switch tracks but it's not the most obvious choice for students. But it's also a matter of what is prioritised: in Germany (and Austria, Denmark, ...) vocational education is much more important and also much more respectable than in most other countries. What is on each track also differs, e.g. in Germany you could study IT/software development etc or you could do most of these also on a vocational track and most often right away have a job afterwards. Nursing is in Germany a vocational profession, in the UK you'd pursue a bachelor's at a university for it. In Spain many youth go to university because they don't have any other real options to choose from; and graduates leave university there often with zero practical skills (improving in past years but not easy). Lithuania has a higher education rate that is above 80% and they are actively trying to reduce it as you just can't use that many higher education graduated and need the vocational professionals as well. So, complex issue. Not everyone needs to have a higher education degree (and much less does everyone want one). Too few or too many tertiary graduates is both not ideal. But do students need to end up with debt around 100k (US) or even just 30k (UK) if they choose tertiary studies? I don't think so.
delusional 7y ago
There's a spectrum there. here in Denmark University is actually free, and you even get money for your.other expenses (I was able to. live on just that money quite comfortably when I was studying). For me the German system is alien too. I think it's due to the deeply individualist mentality you see in America.
aantix 7y ago
Because we don’t want to pay 50% in taxes.
- mushbino 7y ago
  Exactly, we want to pay 40% and have no healthcare, no free higher education, and no decent mass transit.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - aantix 7y ago
    Exactly. Let me spend the extra 10% as I want. You want free ed, pay for it yourself.
    - mnm1 7y ago
      And waste the other 40% on random wars with random countries who pose no threat (which we will lose, of course), imprisoning people for no reason, and just general corruption and kickbacks to the American oligarchy who funded the elections. That's the American way. Billionaires don't need free university, health insurance, public transportation, or safety nets. And the idiot masses think they'll be the next billionaire. How cute.
- DeathArrow 7y ago
  No need to spend 50% in taxes for free public education. Just spend money for knowledge, not for politics. Don't give any money tu bureaucrats and diversocrats.
- amedvednikov 7y ago
  But the tax rates are very similar, especially in places like California, once you account for the property tax and health insurance.
  - aantix 7y ago
DeathArrow 7y ago
>Why do things in America work so different? I don't know about the rest of EU, but in my country we focus on knowledge, not on political correctness and politics. Thus we don't have many bureaucrats to feed so we can provide free education. WE also used to have a high barrier to entry in public Universities like tough admission exams, so only skilled people would be admitted. High barrier also meant very few dropouts. In US they have a terribly large bureaucracy and funding that bureaucracy from public money wouldn't be wise or even possible. In South Korea they have, if I'm not mistaken, one of the best higher education systems, centering on knowledge and performance, not on money and politics. China is starting to also have a very good high education system.
rnikander 7y ago
Education - yes. Subsidizing the horrendous waste at typical US colleges and universities - no. I'm not sure it's the same in Europe. Maybe your "free" university is more bare-bones, essential. I'm from the USA, and went to one of the "best" universities in the country, for a STEM degree. It was a huge waste of money. For my peers who paid to have communists tell them what Shakespeare means, it was an even bigger waste. Why should we subsidize something that is such a fraud? I could get the same or better education for 0-10% of the cost by taking classes online, self-study, and then paying, in a few specific/advanced cases, for hands-on experience in a lab or consultation with an expert. Outside of STEM it's even worse. I've seen students pay $5-15K for a foreign language course, when you can learn more effectively for $10-20/hour on Skype with a native speaker. I once listened to a philosophy class at one of the most expensive colleges in the USA. It was beyond parody.
- martin_a 7y ago
  Well, you will find some more "esoteric" or useless lectures at German universities, too, but all in all it's a pretty solid education with little fluff around it.
RestlessMind 7y ago
> One can only shake his head when you hear about how things work in America. Or, maybe, that you are hearing only a small selective facts by people who are biased? > Why are you so hostile against each other and/or the weaker/younger/non-wealthy people? That is true of general humanity; Europe and Asia and Africa seem no different to me. > ... there are no real fees where you come out of your education and have 100k in debt. This is a good example of how little you know about USA. Going to 100K debt is a choice many youngsters make. There are far cheaper options like Community Colleges funded by local governments.
- martin_a 7y ago
  > That is true of general humanity; Europe and Asia and Africa seem no different to me. That might be true on a micro level or interpersonal relationships (some of them), but in the bigger picture there a systems in place to keep everybody healthy, educated and provide shelter if you need it. Looks to me like those three points are privileges in America. And on the debt: Ok, it seems like average student loan debt is around $29k [1]. That's still pretty much and depending on your job might take quite long to balance out. In Germany state-provided student loan ("BAfög" - you can also receive it when you start an apprenticeship) debt is limited to 10k Euro. That means: No matter how much you get, your debt will top out there. You'll also only have to pay one half back to the state, the other half is "a present" or an investment in the future of the country. Seems pretty smart compared to 29k. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2020/02/03/student-loan-debt-statistics/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2020/02/03/student...
mnm1 7y ago
> Why do things in America work so different? It's not (yet) a third world country, That's debatable but regardless, we are speeding there as fast as we can. That's why. You already have the answer. For 80 to 90% of the population, it is a third world country. Why? Because the rich have to profit off the suffering of everyone else in all areas. Education, healthcare, food, safety, transportation, etc. I can't think of a single industry in America that's not focused on exploiting the poor, the young, the uninformed, the vulnerable, the sick, etc. Exploitation is what we do while pretending to care about people. Even during corona times, Americans cannot and do not come together to help each other as a society. Yes, some people help each other, even some states, but the federal government is mostly trying to profit off the shortage of ppe and other equipment. They are focused on enabling profit for the corporations that elected it. So what if doctors and nurses die?. Fuck them. That's what America says. Don't believe it? Then where is our national stockpile of equipment? Where is our pandemic preparedness team? This is in every sector. Why can't we have free education? How would these rich colleges get even richer then? Wait you actually think Americans care about the next generation? Please. Only as far as to how to exploit them. Half of Americans hate their neighbors so much, that they'd rather see them get sick, suffer, and die than create a healthcare program that covers everyone. But they have no problem spending trillions on wars and killing others. Americans are shitty people with a shitty government. They are stupid, incompetent, greedy, and above all else, cruel. They love to kill people, they love to hurt others, and they hate it when others are having a good time. Puritan ideals: hard to argue we don't have them. So yeah, why are things like this? Because we are not a civilized country. Because we have no empathy, sympathy, or care for one another. Because we hate one another. Because we are willing to profit while others suffer and extend that suffering to profit more rather than help. That's why.
dang 7y ago
Please don't post nationalistic flamebait to HN. It leads to nationalistic flamewars, which I'm sure you don't want. If you're going to touch on a topic like this, your comment needs flame retardant, not lighter fluid. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20retardant&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
- martin_a 7y ago
  Sorry, but the US is just obviously failing with lots of things these days and we should talk about that. Let's have a look around the world: Spain is, right in the middle of fighting a global pandemic, thinking about introducing a basic income for every citizen to better be able to handle unexpected situations like the one we have. As we have learned from the comments, Denmark even pays your expenses if you choose to study and develop yourself. All of Europe (okay almost all) is putting great effort in switching to renewable energies, making cities more friendly and greener for its residents, all in all just lowering impact on nature and doing good for society and its people. The rising of the new far-right politicians seems to have stopped for the moment. Those people are just "against everything" but have no plan for anything. People understand that in these times. China, which has obviously a very questionable political system, is evolving. EVs are booming, energy generation from renewables is something between 1/4 and 1/3 of total energy generation. They already understood that they can't fuck up the earth and "just move on". India is having probably the strictest measurements worldwide to fight the spread of Covid-19. While I often don't think very high of India, they got this one right and are really doing their best. We should acknowledge that. So, while the whole "old world" is steadily evolving, sometimes struggling but somehow still moving forward, the "new world", namely the USA, is just broken. The political leader is a maniac, people can go bankrupt when they need medical treatment, going to university can leave you with high debt. In which year and what society do you live, when these injustices are still accepted? The USA is developing great technology, they have innovative companies, that's all really going well for them. But the political system and society seems to be a real mess, with a strange mixture of fanatism, fears from 60 years ago ("the russians", "communism") and an ugly "all mine, don't care for the rest"-attitude. And here on HN are the people who could change that. Here are the people that work for those tech companies, that invent or work on the stuff that the world is craving after tomorrow. Here on HN are the people who have the chance, the intelligence, the knowledge to change that system. Overthrow your political system, go into politics, found a new party, whatever, but change something. Because the US has all the potential to be a leading example for the world and not something everybody laughs about. But as long as nobody tries to change anything, and headlines like these are on here, I beg your pardon, we should have "nationalistic flamebait" to question the status quo.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

simfoo 7y ago

My guess: It is politically wanted to have graduates that will take any job because they are deep into debt with no chance of getting rid of it through bankruptcy. This pressure keeps wages down and "motivation" up.

delusional 7y ago
From a purely free market perspective, it makes sense. getting educated takes resources, that education then has to earn you more resources in the long run, meaning you can pay off the loan. That ignores all the sociatal benefits from having a more well educated poopulous, and I like free education, but you can't deny there's some internal logic there.

battery_cowboy 7y ago

I don't agree with this sentiment and I believe it's based on a big lie, but here's what some of the "average" Americans might think: "I'm an American, my ancestors for generations have pioneered the frontier and could only rely on themselves. I don't like the idea of helping some lazy bum get their art degree on my dime, so I'm against free college. I'm a working man, and my son will be too, or he'll get a degree as an engineer or scientist and be able to make enough money to pay his loans. My daughter will get married and have babies. That's the way it's been and America has been awesome forever, so I don't see why we should follow Europe, who has so many countries in debt crisis that couldn't pull themselves up like America did."

redis_mlc 7y ago
It's not a big lie, it's more of an American frame of mind. What you described is called the "Just World" fallacy - you get what you deserve. Or a more modern term, "I got mine." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis The US founders, the Pilgrims, were (religious) puritans, and that mindset carries on until today. > you milk your youth Politicians and the oligarchy are very concerned about personal moral hazard, not so much about corporate moral hazard. So youth get non-dischargeable student debt, and companies get bailouts. (Since most bills are written by lobbyists, not elected officials, it would be very interesting to see who wrote that education bill.) How deep is the fear of personal moral hazard? There were bread riots and Washington, DC was occupied by rioters in the Great Depression after Washington refused to provide aid in case, "everybody would just stop farming." As Warren Buffett said, "[The war between the poor and rich in America is over. You lost.]" (Note that he is one of the few billionaires who has gone on record about this, because he knows there's a problem with 15% capital gains tax rate for investors like him, when employees like his secretary pay around 40%.) > you come out of your education and have 100k in debt. Oh, and it's 200k in school debt, and no health care. And buy a car if you want to get around. Rock on! More seriously, the US lacks a coherent policy on anything (healthcare, education, infrastructure, etc.) So it's an Oliver Twist-style existence for the bottom 99%. You can probably use this search filter to find intelligent discussion about US politics, "no policy" plus "US" and your favorite topic. This isn't a Trump problem, it's a "too many lawyers in Washington" problem. If you want to read astonishing truthfulness by politicians today, read anything by top Malaysian leader, Dr. Mahathir, or the investor Tan Teng Boo: https://www.thesundaily.my/business/foreigners-exremely-cautious-on-investing-in-malaysia-says-expert-YE2024771 https://www.thesundaily.my/business/foreigners-exremely-caut... How's that for transparency and honesty? Every conversation with those two is a roadmap for progress for their country. So it is possible.
nabla9 7y ago
This is basically agricultural era thinking peppered with laissez-faire ideology. In 1700-hundreads you could drop average household with some seeds and few tools into the forest and they would go on. If there was village around with 50-100 people their productivity would probably double. Connected to organized state and trade it might increase even more. Today >95% of the value from work comes from the infrastructure and society around people. Marginal improvements to aggregate education levels improve aggregate incomes and productivity. If your country has higher educated lazy bums than some other country, it creates value and wealth and you are freed to do marginally more demanding and valuable work for yourself. Getting even lazy bums go trough college can easily flip into net positive due to slightly better lifetime earning and health.

firebacon 7y ago

The other difference of course is that in Germany, only a fairly small proportion of high school students is even allowed to go to Uni. People that were not placed into Gymnasium at age 8 are set on a course where, once they turn 18, do not get to go free Uni; they simply are not allowed to go to Uni at all! Also the problem of cost of living while studying isn't exactly trivial. Accommodation, food and participating in general student life all are things that cost a lot of money. You will need at least 1k-1.5k EUR net per month, which means earning 2k or more gross. That's not exactly easy to do on the side, since most degree programmes are full-time only; you are expected to put your 40 hours a week towards the degree and not some other job to finance yourself. When polled, 87% of students answered that they were dependent on financial support from their parents and 12% received state-sponsored loans [1]. So let's not kid ourselves. The question of whether you will go to Uni or not, in Germany, also depends to a very large degree on who and how wealthy your parents are. Statistically speaking, your chance to go to Uni is 27% if your parents are blue collar workers. It is 79% if your parents also hold academic degrees. If your parents have no professional training at all, the probability is 12%. [2] So maybe we should focus on our own issues first ;) [1] https://www.sueddeutsche.de/bildung/studienfinanzierung-so-koennen-studenten-ihr-studium-finanzieren-1.3172337 https://www.sueddeutsche.de/bildung/studienfinanzierung-so-k... [2] https://www.forschung-und-lehre.de/lehre/nichtakademiker-knapp-ein-drittel-der-kinder-studiert-597/ https://www.forschung-und-lehre.de/lehre/nichtakademiker-kna...

notechback 7y ago
It's a very complex issue with many elements. E.g. the EU has been critising Germany's early 'tracking' on one or the other path for decades, some changes have taken place with a new school type introduced a few years ago, but getting schools/cities/.. to switch to this has been an uphill battle. While German students are expected to finance themselves, those from low income families get financial support (a loan with very favourable terms that only has to be paid back if the student reaches a certain income threshold after their studies). The problem that low socio-economic background youth don't study is not primarily a financial issue; much more a matter of aspirations and the tracking you mention. There are ways to switch tracks but it's not the most obvious choice for students. But it's also a matter of what is prioritised: in Germany (and Austria, Denmark, ...) vocational education is much more important and also much more respectable than in most other countries. What is on each track also differs, e.g. in Germany you could study IT/software development etc or you could do most of these also on a vocational track and most often right away have a job afterwards. Nursing is in Germany a vocational profession, in the UK you'd pursue a bachelor's at a university for it. In Spain many youth go to university because they don't have any other real options to choose from; and graduates leave university there often with zero practical skills (improving in past years but not easy). Lithuania has a higher education rate that is above 80% and they are actively trying to reduce it as you just can't use that many higher education graduated and need the vocational professionals as well. So, complex issue. Not everyone needs to have a higher education degree (and much less does everyone want one). Too few or too many tertiary graduates is both not ideal. But do students need to end up with debt around 100k (US) or even just 30k (UK) if they choose tertiary studies? I don't think so.

delusional 7y ago

There's a spectrum there. here in Denmark University is actually free, and you even get money for your.other expenses (I was able to. live on just that money quite comfortably when I was studying). For me the German system is alien too. I think it's due to the deeply individualist mentality you see in America.

aantix 7y ago

Because we don’t want to pay 50% in taxes.

mushbino 7y ago
Exactly, we want to pay 40% and have no healthcare, no free higher education, and no decent mass transit.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- aantix 7y ago
  Exactly. Let me spend the extra 10% as I want. You want free ed, pay for it yourself.
  - mnm1 7y ago
    And waste the other 40% on random wars with random countries who pose no threat (which we will lose, of course), imprisoning people for no reason, and just general corruption and kickbacks to the American oligarchy who funded the elections. That's the American way. Billionaires don't need free university, health insurance, public transportation, or safety nets. And the idiot masses think they'll be the next billionaire. How cute.
DeathArrow 7y ago
No need to spend 50% in taxes for free public education. Just spend money for knowledge, not for politics. Don't give any money tu bureaucrats and diversocrats.
amedvednikov 7y ago
But the tax rates are very similar, especially in places like California, once you account for the property tax and health insurance.
- aantix 7y ago

DeathArrow 7y ago

>Why do things in America work so different? I don't know about the rest of EU, but in my country we focus on knowledge, not on political correctness and politics. Thus we don't have many bureaucrats to feed so we can provide free education. WE also used to have a high barrier to entry in public Universities like tough admission exams, so only skilled people would be admitted. High barrier also meant very few dropouts. In US they have a terribly large bureaucracy and funding that bureaucracy from public money wouldn't be wise or even possible. In South Korea they have, if I'm not mistaken, one of the best higher education systems, centering on knowledge and performance, not on money and politics. China is starting to also have a very good high education system.

rnikander 7y ago

Education - yes. Subsidizing the horrendous waste at typical US colleges and universities - no. I'm not sure it's the same in Europe. Maybe your "free" university is more bare-bones, essential. I'm from the USA, and went to one of the "best" universities in the country, for a STEM degree. It was a huge waste of money. For my peers who paid to have communists tell them what Shakespeare means, it was an even bigger waste. Why should we subsidize something that is such a fraud? I could get the same or better education for 0-10% of the cost by taking classes online, self-study, and then paying, in a few specific/advanced cases, for hands-on experience in a lab or consultation with an expert. Outside of STEM it's even worse. I've seen students pay $5-15K for a foreign language course, when you can learn more effectively for $10-20/hour on Skype with a native speaker. I once listened to a philosophy class at one of the most expensive colleges in the USA. It was beyond parody.

martin_a 7y ago
Well, you will find some more "esoteric" or useless lectures at German universities, too, but all in all it's a pretty solid education with little fluff around it.

RestlessMind 7y ago

> One can only shake his head when you hear about how things work in America. Or, maybe, that you are hearing only a small selective facts by people who are biased? > Why are you so hostile against each other and/or the weaker/younger/non-wealthy people? That is true of general humanity; Europe and Asia and Africa seem no different to me. > ... there are no real fees where you come out of your education and have 100k in debt. This is a good example of how little you know about USA. Going to 100K debt is a choice many youngsters make. There are far cheaper options like Community Colleges funded by local governments.

martin_a 7y ago
> That is true of general humanity; Europe and Asia and Africa seem no different to me. That might be true on a micro level or interpersonal relationships (some of them), but in the bigger picture there a systems in place to keep everybody healthy, educated and provide shelter if you need it. Looks to me like those three points are privileges in America. And on the debt: Ok, it seems like average student loan debt is around $29k [1]. That's still pretty much and depending on your job might take quite long to balance out. In Germany state-provided student loan ("BAfög" - you can also receive it when you start an apprenticeship) debt is limited to 10k Euro. That means: No matter how much you get, your debt will top out there. You'll also only have to pay one half back to the state, the other half is "a present" or an investment in the future of the country. Seems pretty smart compared to 29k. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2020/02/03/student-loan-debt-statistics/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2020/02/03/student...

mnm1 7y ago

> Why do things in America work so different? It's not (yet) a third world country, That's debatable but regardless, we are speeding there as fast as we can. That's why. You already have the answer. For 80 to 90% of the population, it is a third world country. Why? Because the rich have to profit off the suffering of everyone else in all areas. Education, healthcare, food, safety, transportation, etc. I can't think of a single industry in America that's not focused on exploiting the poor, the young, the uninformed, the vulnerable, the sick, etc. Exploitation is what we do while pretending to care about people. Even during corona times, Americans cannot and do not come together to help each other as a society. Yes, some people help each other, even some states, but the federal government is mostly trying to profit off the shortage of ppe and other equipment. They are focused on enabling profit for the corporations that elected it. So what if doctors and nurses die?. Fuck them. That's what America says. Don't believe it? Then where is our national stockpile of equipment? Where is our pandemic preparedness team? This is in every sector. Why can't we have free education? How would these rich colleges get even richer then? Wait you actually think Americans care about the next generation? Please. Only as far as to how to exploit them. Half of Americans hate their neighbors so much, that they'd rather see them get sick, suffer, and die than create a healthcare program that covers everyone. But they have no problem spending trillions on wars and killing others. Americans are shitty people with a shitty government. They are stupid, incompetent, greedy, and above all else, cruel. They love to kill people, they love to hurt others, and they hate it when others are having a good time. Puritan ideals: hard to argue we don't have them. So yeah, why are things like this? Because we are not a civilized country. Because we have no empathy, sympathy, or care for one another. Because we hate one another. Because we are willing to profit while others suffer and extend that suffering to profit more rather than help. That's why.

dang 7y ago

Please don't post nationalistic flamebait to HN. It leads to nationalistic flamewars, which I'm sure you don't want. If you're going to touch on a topic like this, your comment needs flame retardant, not lighter fluid. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20retardant&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

martin_a 7y ago
Sorry, but the US is just obviously failing with lots of things these days and we should talk about that. Let's have a look around the world: Spain is, right in the middle of fighting a global pandemic, thinking about introducing a basic income for every citizen to better be able to handle unexpected situations like the one we have. As we have learned from the comments, Denmark even pays your expenses if you choose to study and develop yourself. All of Europe (okay almost all) is putting great effort in switching to renewable energies, making cities more friendly and greener for its residents, all in all just lowering impact on nature and doing good for society and its people. The rising of the new far-right politicians seems to have stopped for the moment. Those people are just "against everything" but have no plan for anything. People understand that in these times. China, which has obviously a very questionable political system, is evolving. EVs are booming, energy generation from renewables is something between 1/4 and 1/3 of total energy generation. They already understood that they can't fuck up the earth and "just move on". India is having probably the strictest measurements worldwide to fight the spread of Covid-19. While I often don't think very high of India, they got this one right and are really doing their best. We should acknowledge that. So, while the whole "old world" is steadily evolving, sometimes struggling but somehow still moving forward, the "new world", namely the USA, is just broken. The political leader is a maniac, people can go bankrupt when they need medical treatment, going to university can leave you with high debt. In which year and what society do you live, when these injustices are still accepted? The USA is developing great technology, they have innovative companies, that's all really going well for them. But the political system and society seems to be a real mess, with a strange mixture of fanatism, fears from 60 years ago ("the russians", "communism") and an ugly "all mine, don't care for the rest"-attitude. And here on HN are the people who could change that. Here are the people that work for those tech companies, that invent or work on the stuff that the world is craving after tomorrow. Here on HN are the people who have the chance, the intelligence, the knowledge to change that system. Overthrow your political system, go into politics, found a new party, whatever, but change something. Because the US has all the potential to be a leading example for the world and not something everybody laughs about. But as long as nobody tries to change anything, and headlines like these are on here, I beg your pardon, we should have "nationalistic flamebait" to question the status quo.