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"Bricked" is relative, depending on your skill level. For some consumers, if recovery mode doesn't work that might be the end of line. However, there are more

"Bricked" is relative, depending on your skill level. For some consumers, if recovery mode doesn't work that might be the end of line. However, there are more advanced users that can access the storage via another system and fix it there, hook up via serial port or JTAG and flash new firmware, or even desolder and replace chips. On the far other end of the spectrum, there's going to be people that consider "doesn't show the normal UI after I press the power button" as bricked.

irjustin 7y ago
Granted there's no formal definition of "bricked" it usually means a hardware requirement to restore functionality. I'd like to keep it this way even to the general lay person. Because if you need hardware the barrier to entry goes up significantly. Agreed that 'bricked' is not the right term here.
- NaOH 7y ago
  > Granted there's no formal definition of "bricked" it usually means a hardware requirement to restore functionality. From Dictionary.app that comes standard with the Mac: "a smartphone or other electronic device that has completely ceased to function"
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    Dictionary definitions are not formal definitions, they are attempts to capture usage. And they are almost invariably approximations except when explicitly specifying otherwise, and outside of the the more lavish of the unabridged dictionaries are also almost in invariably simplified, both in the number of definitions of any term presented and often the individual definitions, for brevity at the expense of accuracy.
    - zimpenfish 7y ago
      > Dictionary definitions are not formal definitions, they are attempts to capture usage. But because they're "captured usage", they're generally what people would understand by the term.
      - craftinator 7y ago
        Yes, but to use a term in a technically relevant way, it needs to be tied to reality; if not, it's just marketing jargon or pseudo-tech speak. The best technical definition for this case is not by how it is most commonly understood, but how it most commonly applies. Dragonwriter makes a compelling case in that it is most commonly true that a user won't have access to the specialized hardware required to "unbrick" the device.
    - gruez 7y ago
      Case in point: "literally" meaning both literally and metaphorically
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - mthoms 7y ago
        Soon, we'll only be able to communicate with "likes" and "upvotes" because words will have lost all meaning.
      - dllthomas 7y ago
        I disagree with that analysis, incidentally. "Literally" is often used when the subject is metaphorical, but that's not the same thing as it meaning "metaphorically". If you took the "literally" away, it would still be understood to be metaphorical - the "literally" is intended to strengthen. It's the normal sense of literally, used hyperbolically. In the same way, when someone says "you left me waiting for days" we don't say that "days" sometimes means tens of minutes.
- BoorishBears 7y ago
  The informal definition I’ve always seen is, it’s about as useful as a brick until you physically open up the case and fix it one way or another.
- ct520 7y ago
  I agree. From the modding days bricked always ment hardware hack was required.. I have the same gripe about how the word is used now. Glad to see it’s not just me
- battery_cowboy 7y ago
  I consider bricked to be anything you need specialized tools for. So JTAG-fiddly-stuff-required would be bricked, but if I can get the thing working by moving some jumpers or entering some advanced recovery mode while reading about it on the internet, that's not bricked. It's also bricked if you have to replace hardware, like if you have to replace a chip or a board.
- DeathArrow 7y ago
  A good definition of bricked is "software update rendered the computer unusable for the user".
  - CPLX 7y ago
    Indeed. Or two be even more precise, renders the computer functionally equivalent to a brick.
    - mattkrause 7y ago
      I think the caused-by-software part is key. The Sonos "recycle mode" bricks the device. If same effect is produced by a bad capacitor (rather than a deliberately-blown efuse), it's just broken.
Legogris 7y ago
Going with the line being drawn at hardware, the practical difference for the end-user would be "can the Apple store fix it for me while I wait"
- danieldk 7y ago
  If the Apple store is open and not closed during a world-wide pandemic. In this case, you can probably recover through the DFU mode and reinstalling Bridge OS. But this requires another Mac, which some people may not have, and at least some tech know-how.
tmh88j 7y ago
>"Bricked" is relative, depending on your skill level. >For some consumers, if recovery mode doesn't work that might be the end of line. If you want to go by that rule, for a large number of people simply getting a virus would mean their computer is bricked. I think it's safe to assume "bricked" means it's a hardware level issue.
- AlfeG 7y ago
  Usually it mean that device is not function anymore. Some time ago were very easy to brick phones while flashimg them. Its not hardware, it just complete mess in software.
  - tmh88j 7y ago
    >Usually it mean that device is not function anymore. Some time ago were very easy to brick phones while flashimg them. Its not hardware, it just complete mess in software. Failing to make a back up of the software on a device which you're attempting to hack and subsequently destroying hardly seems relevant to an auto update locking you out. That's more like changing your password and forgetting it, or back in the day formatting your hard drive without a copy of XP to re-install. I don't know which phone you're referring to, but every phone I've rooted has been salvageable.
- bryanrasmussen 7y ago
  I guess I'd go with "bricked means the device is no longer usable, due to some problem the cause of which lies with the manufacturer", so most often devices are bricked because of hardware issues because manufacturer software issues are generally recoverable from.
  - tmh88j 7y ago
    Sure, but this is in the context of Macbook Pro's which can be fixed by someone with a bit of technical prowess, or literally anyone if you bring to to an Apple store. They're not locked down by hardware and unable to be restored like the Sonos smart speakers. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51768574 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51768574
projectileboy 7y ago
Well, skill level and time. As soon as I’m replacing chips in a system I’m probably losing money if I value my time above $0/hr.
Florin_Andrei 7y ago
> "Bricked" is relative, depending on your skill level. According to postmodernism, everything is like that.
janpot 7y ago
They are "users", not "consumers".
j4yav 7y ago
Is the power system in your house bricked if you don't know how to reset the fuse? Is your car bricked if your battery dies and you need help to replace it? Maybe, but this sounds really strange to my ears. I think for me the difference between bricked and non bricked is the expense of the repair, and maybe if it's more than the value of the device. If the wiring in your house is all melted after lightning strike then it's bricked. If you total your car it's bricked.
- ironmagma 7y ago
  It’s not just money but time, research, and ease. If you are in the desert with no cell connection and your car encounters a failure condition, even though you can pay to have it fixed, for all intents and purposes, to you it is bricked.
- huffmsa 7y ago
  For a lot of people, any non-normal state == bricked. Especially now, when the genius bar isn't open. And yes, there's a difference between a soft brick and a hard brick, and it depends on your ability to repair. Getting my phone stuck in a bootloop is usually a soft brick, but my Pixel went into one a few years ago for no apparent reason (likely mobo failure) and that was beyond my capacity to repair or diagnose, so it's bricked.
  - BubRoss 7y ago
    Maybe you could call that broke, but that isn't bricked.
  - j4yav 7y ago
    In my experience people call those sorts of things broken or not working, rather than (soft or hard) bricked. So people would say things like "the power went out in my house and soft bricked my TV until the power company turned it back on"? It's interesting how language evolves.
    - huffmsa 7y ago
      No, downloading a bad patch for your smart TV that puts it in a bootloop or won't let you change inputs would be a soft(ware) brick. Hardware errors are hard bricks. This isn't a difficult delineation.
capableweb 7y ago
I've always had the impression that the difference between bricked and non-bricked is if it requires you to "fix" the hardware, it's considered bricked while if you can somehow fix it with just software, it's not bricked (yet?) So flashing new firmware to fix the problem, not bricked. Requiring soldering stuff and replacing hardware, it's bricked.
hypervis0r 7y ago
The problem with this 'it is relative' line of logic is that everything can be relative. We need terms that describe stuff regardless of how people perceive it. Otherwise, as you said, 'bricked' can mean almost anything. So what's the point of using a word without any particular meaning?
- biddlesby 7y ago
  Exactly this
DeathArrow 7y ago
>However, there are more advanced users that can access the storage via another system and fix it there, hook up via serial port or JTAG and flash new firmware, or even desolder and replace chips. Not all people own more than one system. If it was my only computer, and depend on it to do work and earn my living, and it broke, I would be terribly upset. Especially these days with the quarantine.
at_a_remove 7y ago
If you go that route, "bricked" is now indistinguishable from "broke," and we already have a word for that. Broke. We would have then gone from a situation where we had two different states and names for each of those states to a situation where we have two words for the very same, very fuzzy state and no way to talk about the other state. It makes a mockery of the idea of advice. Imagine your parents calling you and telling you that their machine is bricked. Well, I guess they must buy a new one and the old must go to electronic recycling. No need for a diagnostic of any kind, it's bricked. Linguistic descriptivism will be the death of communication and standards. Only pushing back at the creep will allow people to discuss anything technical. Imagine the trend should it overtake medicine. If a certain kind of stroke is suspected, the patient should take aspirin right away. No, aspirin-aspirin, not ibuprofen. Then you have someone who says, "Well, ibuprofen is an aspirin sure!"
- torgian 7y ago
  Good comment here.
- II2II 7y ago
  As much as I would like precise and accurate language, the reality is that people have varying degrees of knowledge of any field. That is why computer technicians and doctors alike have to ask deeper questions when making a diagnosis. Even within a field, people may have slightly different interpretations of what a word means. Take consumer electronics. Say someone plugged in the wrong power supply and blew an inductor. If you don't know what a power supply filter is, it's garbage. If you do know what's going on, it's a simple repair. Now look at the case of a bad firmware update, where the device cannot reach recovery mode. Someone with a knowledge of embedded software development may know how to fix that, particularly if they have connections with the vendor. Most people will consider it damaged beyond repair. The thing is, you can have one person who is knowledgeable about software and another about electronics having entirely different interpretations of what bricked means. The only real commonality in the definition is, "I cannot repair it." For someone with negligible knowledge about how consumer electronics, that is going to have a very broad application. Personally, I think that bricked means that it can only be repaired with specialized tools (including soldering irons or JTAG interfaces). But hey, I'm sure a lot of people would beg to differ. EDIT: missing don't.
amelius 7y ago
> "Bricked" is relative, depending on your skill level. You can always bring it to a repair-service. I'd say it is "bricked" if repairing it costs more than buying a new one; i.e. it's a total loss situation.
floatingatoll 7y ago
The above thread about using DFU to recover a bricked MacBook confirms this: To HN experts, the device was bricked, until a new repair step was made known that could repair the issue (“unbrick it”).

irjustin 7y ago

Granted there's no formal definition of "bricked" it usually means a hardware requirement to restore functionality. I'd like to keep it this way even to the general lay person. Because if you need hardware the barrier to entry goes up significantly. Agreed that 'bricked' is not the right term here.

NaOH 7y ago
> Granted there's no formal definition of "bricked" it usually means a hardware requirement to restore functionality. From Dictionary.app that comes standard with the Mac: "a smartphone or other electronic device that has completely ceased to function"
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  Dictionary definitions are not formal definitions, they are attempts to capture usage. And they are almost invariably approximations except when explicitly specifying otherwise, and outside of the the more lavish of the unabridged dictionaries are also almost in invariably simplified, both in the number of definitions of any term presented and often the individual definitions, for brevity at the expense of accuracy.
  - zimpenfish 7y ago
    > Dictionary definitions are not formal definitions, they are attempts to capture usage. But because they're "captured usage", they're generally what people would understand by the term.
    - craftinator 7y ago
      Yes, but to use a term in a technically relevant way, it needs to be tied to reality; if not, it's just marketing jargon or pseudo-tech speak. The best technical definition for this case is not by how it is most commonly understood, but how it most commonly applies. Dragonwriter makes a compelling case in that it is most commonly true that a user won't have access to the specialized hardware required to "unbrick" the device.
  - gruez 7y ago
    Case in point: "literally" meaning both literally and metaphorically
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - mthoms 7y ago
      Soon, we'll only be able to communicate with "likes" and "upvotes" because words will have lost all meaning.
    - dllthomas 7y ago
      I disagree with that analysis, incidentally. "Literally" is often used when the subject is metaphorical, but that's not the same thing as it meaning "metaphorically". If you took the "literally" away, it would still be understood to be metaphorical - the "literally" is intended to strengthen. It's the normal sense of literally, used hyperbolically. In the same way, when someone says "you left me waiting for days" we don't say that "days" sometimes means tens of minutes.
BoorishBears 7y ago
The informal definition I’ve always seen is, it’s about as useful as a brick until you physically open up the case and fix it one way or another.
ct520 7y ago
I agree. From the modding days bricked always ment hardware hack was required.. I have the same gripe about how the word is used now. Glad to see it’s not just me
battery_cowboy 7y ago
I consider bricked to be anything you need specialized tools for. So JTAG-fiddly-stuff-required would be bricked, but if I can get the thing working by moving some jumpers or entering some advanced recovery mode while reading about it on the internet, that's not bricked. It's also bricked if you have to replace hardware, like if you have to replace a chip or a board.
DeathArrow 7y ago
A good definition of bricked is "software update rendered the computer unusable for the user".
- CPLX 7y ago
  Indeed. Or two be even more precise, renders the computer functionally equivalent to a brick.
  - mattkrause 7y ago
    I think the caused-by-software part is key. The Sonos "recycle mode" bricks the device. If same effect is produced by a bad capacitor (rather than a deliberately-blown efuse), it's just broken.

Legogris 7y ago

Going with the line being drawn at hardware, the practical difference for the end-user would be "can the Apple store fix it for me while I wait"

danieldk 7y ago
If the Apple store is open and not closed during a world-wide pandemic. In this case, you can probably recover through the DFU mode and reinstalling Bridge OS. But this requires another Mac, which some people may not have, and at least some tech know-how.

tmh88j 7y ago

>"Bricked" is relative, depending on your skill level. >For some consumers, if recovery mode doesn't work that might be the end of line. If you want to go by that rule, for a large number of people simply getting a virus would mean their computer is bricked. I think it's safe to assume "bricked" means it's a hardware level issue.

AlfeG 7y ago
Usually it mean that device is not function anymore. Some time ago were very easy to brick phones while flashimg them. Its not hardware, it just complete mess in software.
- tmh88j 7y ago
  >Usually it mean that device is not function anymore. Some time ago were very easy to brick phones while flashimg them. Its not hardware, it just complete mess in software. Failing to make a back up of the software on a device which you're attempting to hack and subsequently destroying hardly seems relevant to an auto update locking you out. That's more like changing your password and forgetting it, or back in the day formatting your hard drive without a copy of XP to re-install. I don't know which phone you're referring to, but every phone I've rooted has been salvageable.
bryanrasmussen 7y ago
I guess I'd go with "bricked means the device is no longer usable, due to some problem the cause of which lies with the manufacturer", so most often devices are bricked because of hardware issues because manufacturer software issues are generally recoverable from.
- tmh88j 7y ago
  Sure, but this is in the context of Macbook Pro's which can be fixed by someone with a bit of technical prowess, or literally anyone if you bring to to an Apple store. They're not locked down by hardware and unable to be restored like the Sonos smart speakers. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51768574 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51768574

projectileboy 7y ago

Well, skill level and time. As soon as I’m replacing chips in a system I’m probably losing money if I value my time above $0/hr.

Florin_Andrei 7y ago

> "Bricked" is relative, depending on your skill level. According to postmodernism, everything is like that.

janpot 7y ago

They are "users", not "consumers".

j4yav 7y ago

Is the power system in your house bricked if you don't know how to reset the fuse? Is your car bricked if your battery dies and you need help to replace it? Maybe, but this sounds really strange to my ears. I think for me the difference between bricked and non bricked is the expense of the repair, and maybe if it's more than the value of the device. If the wiring in your house is all melted after lightning strike then it's bricked. If you total your car it's bricked.

ironmagma 7y ago
It’s not just money but time, research, and ease. If you are in the desert with no cell connection and your car encounters a failure condition, even though you can pay to have it fixed, for all intents and purposes, to you it is bricked.
huffmsa 7y ago
For a lot of people, any non-normal state == bricked. Especially now, when the genius bar isn't open. And yes, there's a difference between a soft brick and a hard brick, and it depends on your ability to repair. Getting my phone stuck in a bootloop is usually a soft brick, but my Pixel went into one a few years ago for no apparent reason (likely mobo failure) and that was beyond my capacity to repair or diagnose, so it's bricked.
- BubRoss 7y ago
  Maybe you could call that broke, but that isn't bricked.
- j4yav 7y ago
  In my experience people call those sorts of things broken or not working, rather than (soft or hard) bricked. So people would say things like "the power went out in my house and soft bricked my TV until the power company turned it back on"? It's interesting how language evolves.
  - huffmsa 7y ago
    No, downloading a bad patch for your smart TV that puts it in a bootloop or won't let you change inputs would be a soft(ware) brick. Hardware errors are hard bricks. This isn't a difficult delineation.

capableweb 7y ago

I've always had the impression that the difference between bricked and non-bricked is if it requires you to "fix" the hardware, it's considered bricked while if you can somehow fix it with just software, it's not bricked (yet?) So flashing new firmware to fix the problem, not bricked. Requiring soldering stuff and replacing hardware, it's bricked.

hypervis0r 7y ago

The problem with this 'it is relative' line of logic is that everything can be relative. We need terms that describe stuff regardless of how people perceive it. Otherwise, as you said, 'bricked' can mean almost anything. So what's the point of using a word without any particular meaning?

biddlesby 7y ago
Exactly this

DeathArrow 7y ago

>However, there are more advanced users that can access the storage via another system and fix it there, hook up via serial port or JTAG and flash new firmware, or even desolder and replace chips. Not all people own more than one system. If it was my only computer, and depend on it to do work and earn my living, and it broke, I would be terribly upset. Especially these days with the quarantine.

at_a_remove 7y ago

If you go that route, "bricked" is now indistinguishable from "broke," and we already have a word for that. Broke. We would have then gone from a situation where we had two different states and names for each of those states to a situation where we have two words for the very same, very fuzzy state and no way to talk about the other state. It makes a mockery of the idea of advice. Imagine your parents calling you and telling you that their machine is bricked. Well, I guess they must buy a new one and the old must go to electronic recycling. No need for a diagnostic of any kind, it's bricked. Linguistic descriptivism will be the death of communication and standards. Only pushing back at the creep will allow people to discuss anything technical. Imagine the trend should it overtake medicine. If a certain kind of stroke is suspected, the patient should take aspirin right away. No, aspirin-aspirin, not ibuprofen. Then you have someone who says, "Well, ibuprofen is an aspirin sure!"

torgian 7y ago
Good comment here.
II2II 7y ago
As much as I would like precise and accurate language, the reality is that people have varying degrees of knowledge of any field. That is why computer technicians and doctors alike have to ask deeper questions when making a diagnosis. Even within a field, people may have slightly different interpretations of what a word means. Take consumer electronics. Say someone plugged in the wrong power supply and blew an inductor. If you don't know what a power supply filter is, it's garbage. If you do know what's going on, it's a simple repair. Now look at the case of a bad firmware update, where the device cannot reach recovery mode. Someone with a knowledge of embedded software development may know how to fix that, particularly if they have connections with the vendor. Most people will consider it damaged beyond repair. The thing is, you can have one person who is knowledgeable about software and another about electronics having entirely different interpretations of what bricked means. The only real commonality in the definition is, "I cannot repair it." For someone with negligible knowledge about how consumer electronics, that is going to have a very broad application. Personally, I think that bricked means that it can only be repaired with specialized tools (including soldering irons or JTAG interfaces). But hey, I'm sure a lot of people would beg to differ. EDIT: missing don't.

amelius 7y ago

> "Bricked" is relative, depending on your skill level. You can always bring it to a repair-service. I'd say it is "bricked" if repairing it costs more than buying a new one; i.e. it's a total loss situation.

floatingatoll 7y ago

The above thread about using DFU to recover a bricked MacBook confirms this: To HN experts, the device was bricked, until a new repair step was made known that could repair the issue (“unbrick it”).