6 ms·

Ask HN: Play Store removed our app, but allows WhatsApp

22 points by heroic 6y ago

We are a FinTech startup in India. We give unserved people a credit card. To ensure recovery we collect user's contacts and use them to remind people of their bill if they don't pay. All of this is covered in our TnC, and we warn users of the actions we will take before we do so. About two weeks ago, Google Play banned updates to our app from the Play Store citing this section of their Policy, here: https://play.google.com/about/privacy-security-deception/user-data/#!?zippy_activeEl=personal-sensitive#personal-sensitive https://play.google.com/about/privacy-security-deception/use... We complied. This is how the screen looked before the change: https://imgur.com/a/o4Cvh7F https://imgur.com/a/o4Cvh7F Here's how it looked after the change: https://imgur.com/a/gHP8BDR https://imgur.com/a/gHP8BDR We were approved after the change. However 3 days later, we were removed from the Play Store. So now no one can download our app, or update their app if they have a buggy outdated version. Despite regular appeals, Google keeps redirecting us to the policy above. Today I checked how WhatsApp handled user uploads, as it's the same thing we do; sync contacts on each launch(we don't sync when the app is not being used though). Here's how WhatsApp looks: https://vimeo.com/user112475576/review/406480240/9ca7c4e2c1 https://vimeo.com/user112475576/review/406480240/9ca7c4e2c1 Can anyone help us with what should we do? With the COVID crisis our users are unable to depend on us for their daily spends. We're are the primary credit card for a lot of them, and not being able to service them now, is making us look bad.

rognjen 6y ago
Holy false equivalence Batman! First, afaik WhatsApp doesn't store your contacts but checks if they're available on WhatsApp. Second, it most definitely doesn't contact them.
ccmcarey 6y ago
> we collect user's contacts and use them to remind people of their bill if they don't pay Are you saying you contact the user's contacts to try to get them to pressure the user to pay their bill? --- I read through your TOS and it looks like this is the relevant line: > In case of default or late payment, GalaxyCard reserves the right to use suitable means to collect dues including electronic and or physical communication to the debtor and the debtor's known contacts I think this is a digusting practice, and I am not surprised Google is blocking your app. This is nothing like what WhatsApp does - in fact I don't know of any service at all that does this.
- heroic 6y ago
  Yes. We first contact the user if they don't pay despite calls/emails/push notification/sms for 45 days. Then we warn them for 15 days that their contacts will be asked to remind them of the bill, as per the terms. Finally we contact the contacts. We do this to prevent having to file legal cases against the users as those can drag on for very long in India and are a pain for both parties
  - pentae 6y ago
    I suspect that kind of innovation is frowned upon by Google. It's not the same context as WhatsApp at all
    - heroic 6y ago
      Here's what Google is telling us: Your app is uploading users' [Contact] information to [URL] without a prominent disclosure. Prior to the collection and transmission, it must prominently highlight how the user data will be used, describe the type of data being collected and have the user provide affirmative consent for such use.
      - avianlyric 6y ago
        I think that’s pretty clear. Google are telling you that you must explicitly outline what you’ll do with peoples contacts (i.e. you’ll harass them if the debtor does pay). Your current tick box doesn’t say that at all. They probably want you have a nice big tick box that says: “I agree for [company] to harass my phone contacts if I don’t repay”
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - mkl 6y ago
    Telling your customers' friends and family about their financial problems seems like a pretty terrible thing to do. Edit: And doing so in the hope that they shame or pressure your customers is awful. I agree with ccmcarey upthread: This is disgusting. Stop it.
Jabbles 6y ago
> To ensure recovery we collect user's contacts and use them to remind people of their bill if they don't pay. Could you explain this sentence in more detail please.
- heroic 6y ago
  We first contact the user if they don't pay despite calls/emails/push notification/sms for 45 days. Then we warn them for 15 days that their contacts will be asked to remind them of the bill, as per the terms. Finally we contact the contacts. We do this to prevent having to file legal cases against the users as those can drag on for very long in India and are a pain for both parties
  - La1n 6y ago
    So it's basically blackmail? If you don't pay we will let your family and friends know? Cause the whole reminder thing sounds like a thin veil covering that, seeing as you remind them already. It's not about the reminder.
    - toyg 6y ago
      Social pressure is actually a big part of the success of microcredit initiatives. In many ways it mirrors arrangements that were common in the now-developed world at the time of the industrial revolution (i.e. your social circle would likely know about your outstanding debts, because anyone’s entire world was very restricted). I wonder if this is a case of “internet friction”: Indian people would see no problem with such a behaviour, but one “western” person would be horrified (because this part of the world has largely moved on from those practices).
  - jeltz 6y ago
    Well, this is obviously a different use case for what Whatsapp uses the contact list for. I really do not like Whatsapp's harvesting, but I can easily see why Google can make different calls on your app and Whatsapp. Especially since what you do could be construed as blackmail.
amelius 6y ago
That vimeo link doesn't work.
- heroic 6y ago
  Aah! Here's the video: https://youtu.be/XVQCJsgmQ0w https://youtu.be/XVQCJsgmQ0w
_gok2 6y ago
> With the COVID crisis our users are unable to depend on us for their daily spends. If this is truly a humanitarian issue, then then disable the contact harvesting feature
Jonnax 6y ago
So you contact people's friends, family, colleagues, and random contacts saying: "This person you know is too poor to pay their credit card bill, can you pressure them into paying it?" Damn. That's a new level of crazy.
- heroic 6y ago
  These people are not poor. They assume that since it's an app they taking money from, they can simply refuse to pay. We can, and do, go for the legal route, but it's much much more painful for the user, and for us, even if we want to settle it once a case is filed.
  - hncensorsnonpc 6y ago
    Dude you LOST, you and India's laws are morally bankrupt about it, you are NOT heroic! You claim that your customers are not poor but by definition you stupid lending app is praying in the poor and low IQ people to make you money. STOP
hutzlibu 6y ago
"Can anyone help us with what should we do?" Stop using unethical practices. If you use your clients contacts to spam them, to put pressure on your client, then it seems obvious that you have been removed. And this is not the same as what WhatsApp does. Their method is not quite ethical as well, but your method is way below.
Macha 6y ago
Did these contacts of the user give consent to be contacted? Your behaviour seems spammy. Also the Google page states the following "We don't allow unauthorized publishing or disclosure of people's non-public contacts. " Arguably contacting these people is disclosing they are in a user's contacts. You do seem to breaching Google's policy. I'm on Google's side here.
- heroic 6y ago
  In that sense, isn't Facebook showing people you may know, also disclosing to people that they are in my contact list?
  - Macha 6y ago
    Contact book presence is but one input into that algorithm, which also incorporates friends of friends, friends of people who've logged in from the same IP, people who frequently interact with the same people/content. Its not directly "You might know Alice, we know because she has your number"
phillc73 6y ago
Not solutions, but two potential workarounds. Is it possible to open source the app itself and then distribute via F-Droid?[1] Can you provide your customers with a direct apk download? Although, you will then need to educate your customers about the "scarey" warnings about doing so. I do not have Google Play Store installed on my phone and it is an annoyance when app developers do not provide a direct apk download. Initially, from an ease of update point of view, I guess neither option is quite as convenient as the Play Store. However, once you've broken your reliance on Google to distribute your application, you'll never have to deal with such a situation again. [1] https://f-droid.org/ https://f-droid.org/
- heroic 6y ago
  We are giving the APK as an option to people who are reaching out on support about bugs. But most people don't have the know how of how to enable installing from unknown sources
- hncensorsnonpc 6y ago
  I hope to god fdroid does not allow this. They will probably newer open source their build app and let fdroid build it anyway.
olivierduval 6y ago
Actually, I think that there's 2 different problems here: - first is compliance with Google's term. Obviously, you don't say that the USER's contact will be contacted when the USER bill is out of time and the USER doesn't pay... so your USER might not have understood that this will be the case. I think that you should be clearer about the consequences of allowing your app to access the USER contact list. - second, the morality of the app: obviously, some people in occidental (US / europe) countries might find the app principle awful... because we rely more on Justice than peer-to-peer social pressure. But it's more a cultural difference. If the principle is agreed between the people giving and receiving money... why not ? (I guess that the people giving the money is the one requiring the USER to download the app... Am I right ?) BTW: what happens if the people receving the money desinstall the app ? Or empty its contact list ? Or has no contact ? If I would like to trick your system, I would fill my contact list with garbage, get the money, spend it, then let you contact these garbage contact... Or do you require contacts to use your app too (forced "net effect") ? Anyway: nothing common with WhatsApp
- jamil7 6y ago
  > If the principle is agreed between the people giving and receiving money... why not ? (I guess that the people giving the money is the one requiring the USER to download the app... Am I right I think your misunderstanding the model. You borrow money from this company using this app that harvests your contacts without explicitly stating why. If you don't repay the loan this company starts spamming and harassing your contacts forcing them to pressure you into repaying your loan.
  - heroic 6y ago
    We do give a clear label before asking for user's contacts as to why we need your contacts. See here: https://imgur.com/a/gHP8BDR https://imgur.com/a/gHP8BDR
    - robjan 6y ago
      From the wording it's not at all clear that you plan to message their contacts telling them to remind the customer/victim about their outstanding loan. Furthermore, do you get the consent of the people in their contact list in the first place?
anilgulecha 6y ago
It's a scummy business and even if its fully legal under the text of the law, you should be ashamed of your tactics and business model. You'll get no sympathy if a private business will remove you from their store.
Nextgrid 6y ago
This has got to be one of the scummiest business models I’ve seen in ages. Do not do this.
t0ughcritic 6y ago
This is what worries me about building on these platforms they giveth and taketh at will
mkbkn 6y ago
I'm from India and your service seems unethical to me. Good job by Google banning you. Period.

22 points by heroic 6y ago

rognjen 6y ago

Holy false equivalence Batman! First, afaik WhatsApp doesn't store your contacts but checks if they're available on WhatsApp. Second, it most definitely doesn't contact them.

ccmcarey 6y ago

> we collect user's contacts and use them to remind people of their bill if they don't pay Are you saying you contact the user's contacts to try to get them to pressure the user to pay their bill? --- I read through your TOS and it looks like this is the relevant line: > In case of default or late payment, GalaxyCard reserves the right to use suitable means to collect dues including electronic and or physical communication to the debtor and the debtor's known contacts I think this is a digusting practice, and I am not surprised Google is blocking your app. This is nothing like what WhatsApp does - in fact I don't know of any service at all that does this.

heroic 6y ago
Yes. We first contact the user if they don't pay despite calls/emails/push notification/sms for 45 days. Then we warn them for 15 days that their contacts will be asked to remind them of the bill, as per the terms. Finally we contact the contacts. We do this to prevent having to file legal cases against the users as those can drag on for very long in India and are a pain for both parties
- pentae 6y ago
  I suspect that kind of innovation is frowned upon by Google. It's not the same context as WhatsApp at all
  - heroic 6y ago
    Here's what Google is telling us: Your app is uploading users' [Contact] information to [URL] without a prominent disclosure. Prior to the collection and transmission, it must prominently highlight how the user data will be used, describe the type of data being collected and have the user provide affirmative consent for such use.
    - avianlyric 6y ago
      I think that’s pretty clear. Google are telling you that you must explicitly outline what you’ll do with peoples contacts (i.e. you’ll harass them if the debtor does pay). Your current tick box doesn’t say that at all. They probably want you have a nice big tick box that says: “I agree for [company] to harass my phone contacts if I don’t repay”
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- mkl 6y ago
  Telling your customers' friends and family about their financial problems seems like a pretty terrible thing to do. Edit: And doing so in the hope that they shame or pressure your customers is awful. I agree with ccmcarey upthread: This is disgusting. Stop it.

Jabbles 6y ago

> To ensure recovery we collect user's contacts and use them to remind people of their bill if they don't pay. Could you explain this sentence in more detail please.

heroic 6y ago
We first contact the user if they don't pay despite calls/emails/push notification/sms for 45 days. Then we warn them for 15 days that their contacts will be asked to remind them of the bill, as per the terms. Finally we contact the contacts. We do this to prevent having to file legal cases against the users as those can drag on for very long in India and are a pain for both parties
- La1n 6y ago
  So it's basically blackmail? If you don't pay we will let your family and friends know? Cause the whole reminder thing sounds like a thin veil covering that, seeing as you remind them already. It's not about the reminder.
  - toyg 6y ago
    Social pressure is actually a big part of the success of microcredit initiatives. In many ways it mirrors arrangements that were common in the now-developed world at the time of the industrial revolution (i.e. your social circle would likely know about your outstanding debts, because anyone’s entire world was very restricted). I wonder if this is a case of “internet friction”: Indian people would see no problem with such a behaviour, but one “western” person would be horrified (because this part of the world has largely moved on from those practices).
- jeltz 6y ago
  Well, this is obviously a different use case for what Whatsapp uses the contact list for. I really do not like Whatsapp's harvesting, but I can easily see why Google can make different calls on your app and Whatsapp. Especially since what you do could be construed as blackmail.

amelius 6y ago

That vimeo link doesn't work.

heroic 6y ago
Aah! Here's the video: https://youtu.be/XVQCJsgmQ0w https://youtu.be/XVQCJsgmQ0w

_gok2 6y ago

> With the COVID crisis our users are unable to depend on us for their daily spends. If this is truly a humanitarian issue, then then disable the contact harvesting feature

Jonnax 6y ago

So you contact people's friends, family, colleagues, and random contacts saying: "This person you know is too poor to pay their credit card bill, can you pressure them into paying it?" Damn. That's a new level of crazy.

heroic 6y ago
These people are not poor. They assume that since it's an app they taking money from, they can simply refuse to pay. We can, and do, go for the legal route, but it's much much more painful for the user, and for us, even if we want to settle it once a case is filed.
- hncensorsnonpc 6y ago
  Dude you LOST, you and India's laws are morally bankrupt about it, you are NOT heroic! You claim that your customers are not poor but by definition you stupid lending app is praying in the poor and low IQ people to make you money. STOP

hutzlibu 6y ago

"Can anyone help us with what should we do?" Stop using unethical practices. If you use your clients contacts to spam them, to put pressure on your client, then it seems obvious that you have been removed. And this is not the same as what WhatsApp does. Their method is not quite ethical as well, but your method is way below.

Macha 6y ago

Did these contacts of the user give consent to be contacted? Your behaviour seems spammy. Also the Google page states the following "We don't allow unauthorized publishing or disclosure of people's non-public contacts. " Arguably contacting these people is disclosing they are in a user's contacts. You do seem to breaching Google's policy. I'm on Google's side here.

heroic 6y ago
In that sense, isn't Facebook showing people you may know, also disclosing to people that they are in my contact list?
- Macha 6y ago
  Contact book presence is but one input into that algorithm, which also incorporates friends of friends, friends of people who've logged in from the same IP, people who frequently interact with the same people/content. Its not directly "You might know Alice, we know because she has your number"

phillc73 6y ago

Not solutions, but two potential workarounds. Is it possible to open source the app itself and then distribute via F-Droid?[1] Can you provide your customers with a direct apk download? Although, you will then need to educate your customers about the "scarey" warnings about doing so. I do not have Google Play Store installed on my phone and it is an annoyance when app developers do not provide a direct apk download. Initially, from an ease of update point of view, I guess neither option is quite as convenient as the Play Store. However, once you've broken your reliance on Google to distribute your application, you'll never have to deal with such a situation again. [1] https://f-droid.org/ https://f-droid.org/

heroic 6y ago
We are giving the APK as an option to people who are reaching out on support about bugs. But most people don't have the know how of how to enable installing from unknown sources
hncensorsnonpc 6y ago
I hope to god fdroid does not allow this. They will probably newer open source their build app and let fdroid build it anyway.

olivierduval 6y ago

Actually, I think that there's 2 different problems here: - first is compliance with Google's term. Obviously, you don't say that the USER's contact will be contacted when the USER bill is out of time and the USER doesn't pay... so your USER might not have understood that this will be the case. I think that you should be clearer about the consequences of allowing your app to access the USER contact list. - second, the morality of the app: obviously, some people in occidental (US / europe) countries might find the app principle awful... because we rely more on Justice than peer-to-peer social pressure. But it's more a cultural difference. If the principle is agreed between the people giving and receiving money... why not ? (I guess that the people giving the money is the one requiring the USER to download the app... Am I right ?) BTW: what happens if the people receving the money desinstall the app ? Or empty its contact list ? Or has no contact ? If I would like to trick your system, I would fill my contact list with garbage, get the money, spend it, then let you contact these garbage contact... Or do you require contacts to use your app too (forced "net effect") ? Anyway: nothing common with WhatsApp

jamil7 6y ago
> If the principle is agreed between the people giving and receiving money... why not ? (I guess that the people giving the money is the one requiring the USER to download the app... Am I right I think your misunderstanding the model. You borrow money from this company using this app that harvests your contacts without explicitly stating why. If you don't repay the loan this company starts spamming and harassing your contacts forcing them to pressure you into repaying your loan.
- heroic 6y ago
  We do give a clear label before asking for user's contacts as to why we need your contacts. See here: https://imgur.com/a/gHP8BDR https://imgur.com/a/gHP8BDR
  - robjan 6y ago
    From the wording it's not at all clear that you plan to message their contacts telling them to remind the customer/victim about their outstanding loan. Furthermore, do you get the consent of the people in their contact list in the first place?

anilgulecha 6y ago

It's a scummy business and even if its fully legal under the text of the law, you should be ashamed of your tactics and business model. You'll get no sympathy if a private business will remove you from their store.

Nextgrid 6y ago

This has got to be one of the scummiest business models I’ve seen in ages. Do not do this.

t0ughcritic 6y ago

This is what worries me about building on these platforms they giveth and taketh at will

mkbkn 6y ago

I'm from India and your service seems unethical to me. Good job by Google banning you. Period.