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Actually I would argue they are not the same when your solution will force some number of people into poverty (plus in the US cause them to lose their health ca

Actually I would argue they are not the same when your solution will force some number of people into poverty (plus in the US cause them to lose their health care). No one wants to have to think about these numbers, but if you're responsible for making policy, it's very important to have good estimates of how many lives your policy will save and how many it will ruin. If you don't you're just reacting to the latest panic in the news cycle as sadly far too many politicians do. Data matters, facts matter.

DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
> Data matters, facts matter. You're talking about a difference between a massive number of people dying, and a massive number divided by two dying, and then arguing that a massive number divided by two is not nearly as serious. Nobody knows what the true numbers will be, but only the rough range they'll be in, so arguing over a factor of two is meaningless. These are terrifying numbers either way. > If you don't you're just reacting to the latest panic in the news cycle as sadly far too many politicians do. The "panic" is caused by people finally listening to what epidemiologists have been saying for months. False calm has been far more damaging on this pandemic than panic. If politicians had listened to the panic mongers earlier, the world wouldn't be in this situation.
- nradov 7y ago
  Poverty kills people, too. That has to be considered when deciding on the appropriate response.
  - leereeves 7y ago
    And lying in bed all day kills people too. I'm concerned about elderly people I know who aren't getting enough activity during the lockdown.
    - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
      If there's a rigorous nationwide shutdown for 6 weeks, then the economy can partially open up again and people can go out more (people can still go outside now, as long as they stay away from people they don't live with - I know plenty of old people who are in self-imposed quarantine but still go on walks). This also requires the US to build up its testing and contact-tracing capabilities, so that it can keep the virus from getting out of control again. Unfortunately, the short-sighted rush to reopen everything too quickly, or not to shut it down in the first place, is undermining these efforts. The shutdown worked in China, where it was strictly observed and enforced for several weeks. I hope the US can do the same.
    - nradov 7y ago
      I don't know why you were downvoted. Frailty is an epidemic among the elderly. Once they lose muscle tone and mobility they tend to die quickly. It does little good to avoid virus infection if you end up breaking your hip because of muscle atrophy. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4098658/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4098658/

DiogenesKynikos 7y ago

> Data matters, facts matter. You're talking about a difference between a massive number of people dying, and a massive number divided by two dying, and then arguing that a massive number divided by two is not nearly as serious. Nobody knows what the true numbers will be, but only the rough range they'll be in, so arguing over a factor of two is meaningless. These are terrifying numbers either way. > If you don't you're just reacting to the latest panic in the news cycle as sadly far too many politicians do. The "panic" is caused by people finally listening to what epidemiologists have been saying for months. False calm has been far more damaging on this pandemic than panic. If politicians had listened to the panic mongers earlier, the world wouldn't be in this situation.

nradov 7y ago
Poverty kills people, too. That has to be considered when deciding on the appropriate response.
- leereeves 7y ago
  And lying in bed all day kills people too. I'm concerned about elderly people I know who aren't getting enough activity during the lockdown.
  - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
    If there's a rigorous nationwide shutdown for 6 weeks, then the economy can partially open up again and people can go out more (people can still go outside now, as long as they stay away from people they don't live with - I know plenty of old people who are in self-imposed quarantine but still go on walks). This also requires the US to build up its testing and contact-tracing capabilities, so that it can keep the virus from getting out of control again. Unfortunately, the short-sighted rush to reopen everything too quickly, or not to shut it down in the first place, is undermining these efforts. The shutdown worked in China, where it was strictly observed and enforced for several weeks. I hope the US can do the same.
  - nradov 7y ago
    I don't know why you were downvoted. Frailty is an epidemic among the elderly. Once they lose muscle tone and mobility they tend to die quickly. It does little good to avoid virus infection if you end up breaking your hip because of muscle atrophy. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4098658/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4098658/