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How is this even a question? Of COURSE they should. The fact this is even up for debate is preposterous. Africa should have its artefacts, Greece should get

How is this even a question? Of COURSE they should. The fact this is even up for debate is preposterous. Africa should have its artefacts, Greece should get its marbles back and Western museums should be emptied of ALL war treasure and imperialist spoil. Only then would so-called Western moral authority actually have some basis.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> How is this even a question? Let me try. These artefacts could be considered common human heritage. Mesopotamian artefacts are no more the property of the British than the government in present-day Baghdad. In many cases, the local governments are unstable or extremist, which has lead to priceless treasures being destroyed, defaced, lost or stolen. Anyone claiming this is a simple issue is oversimplifying. Putting aside recent imperialism, should Republican Roman artefacts plundered from Gaul or Syria be returned to Paris or Damascus?
- fit2rule 7y ago
  >These artefacts could be considered common human heritage. Until there is a common human state, this argument is Imperialist nonsense.
- henrikschroder 7y ago
  > Putting aside recent imperialism, should Republican Roman artefacts plundered from Gaul or Syria be returned to Paris or Damascus? The similarities with colonial reparations are striking, and this issue runs into the same kind of problems. If a crime was committed a very long time ago so that everyone involved is long dead, who should be punished, and who is eligible for restitution? A blanket proclamation that "Everything that was stolen should be returned" is so ridiculously oversimplified that you can't do anything but dismiss it.
  - fit2rule 7y ago
    This viewpoint is only 'acceptable' if you're the thief. If you're the victim, of course you want justice. If you stole my house from my family two generations ago, it doesn't matter an iota to me that your offspring think its okay for them to keep it. Seriously people, I can't believe you're justifying this. What the fuck is wrong with you? Shall we attempt this same moralist judo on artefacts of the good ol' USA to demonstrate the facetious nature of this argument?
    - rangibaby 7y ago
      If you still feel victimized by something that happened thousands of years ago, maybe it’s time to let it go
      - fit2rule 7y ago
        Cool. Lets trash the Constitution then! It's entirely irrelevant, having been written in response to transgressions that happened hundreds of years ago.
bpodgursky 7y ago
Should art be tied to the people, the land, the culture, or any and all? If art belongs at least in part to people or culture... there are a lot of Africans in the US. Should they have the right to learn about the culture of their ancestors in a US museum? Why or why not? Cultures and people change. Obviously none of the individuals from the 1600s are alive today, but many of the cultures don't either, and peoples migrate. Tracking down every individual ancestor (by culture? by genes?) and allocating them their proportional art seems... challenging. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't "repatriate" some art. But I don't think it's as simple as "yes, wholeheartedly". There are fractals of complexity to untangle, and it's unclear at what point we cease to be better for trying.
smabie 7y ago
So how do we determine on what year is the so called 'reference' year? It saddens me to say this, but after having lived in Africa for two years, the artifacts are probably better off being in western museums. Though it would of course vary by country, I have a very strong feeling (and too much first hand experience) that if they were returned, they would first go to the minister of antiquities; he would give some speech about how part of the soul of the country has been recovered and then he would sell the antiquities on the black market to some foreign collector. He would then keep maybe 50% of the sale price and pay the rest as bribes to other ministers (including probably the president and prime mister) so they could all be on the same side. The best case scenario would be they went to some moldy basement of a "museum" and never looked at again. The chance of them surviving the next 10 years would probably be less than 50%.
djdjebffj66 7y ago
And can our European nations then be 'emptied' of the foreigners who continue to cause cultural, economic, and physical harm to our people to this day? If you're White and saying these things, you need to take a long hard look at yourself and consider how this hatred of our people and our history has manifested in your mind. If you're non-White you should be penalized more harshly for your racist comment than I will be for this one.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago

> How is this even a question? Let me try. These artefacts could be considered common human heritage. Mesopotamian artefacts are no more the property of the British than the government in present-day Baghdad. In many cases, the local governments are unstable or extremist, which has lead to priceless treasures being destroyed, defaced, lost or stolen. Anyone claiming this is a simple issue is oversimplifying. Putting aside recent imperialism, should Republican Roman artefacts plundered from Gaul or Syria be returned to Paris or Damascus?

fit2rule 7y ago
>These artefacts could be considered common human heritage. Until there is a common human state, this argument is Imperialist nonsense.
henrikschroder 7y ago
> Putting aside recent imperialism, should Republican Roman artefacts plundered from Gaul or Syria be returned to Paris or Damascus? The similarities with colonial reparations are striking, and this issue runs into the same kind of problems. If a crime was committed a very long time ago so that everyone involved is long dead, who should be punished, and who is eligible for restitution? A blanket proclamation that "Everything that was stolen should be returned" is so ridiculously oversimplified that you can't do anything but dismiss it.
- fit2rule 7y ago
  This viewpoint is only 'acceptable' if you're the thief. If you're the victim, of course you want justice. If you stole my house from my family two generations ago, it doesn't matter an iota to me that your offspring think its okay for them to keep it. Seriously people, I can't believe you're justifying this. What the fuck is wrong with you? Shall we attempt this same moralist judo on artefacts of the good ol' USA to demonstrate the facetious nature of this argument?
  - rangibaby 7y ago
    If you still feel victimized by something that happened thousands of years ago, maybe it’s time to let it go
    - fit2rule 7y ago
      Cool. Lets trash the Constitution then! It's entirely irrelevant, having been written in response to transgressions that happened hundreds of years ago.

bpodgursky 7y ago

Should art be tied to the people, the land, the culture, or any and all? If art belongs at least in part to people or culture... there are a lot of Africans in the US. Should they have the right to learn about the culture of their ancestors in a US museum? Why or why not? Cultures and people change. Obviously none of the individuals from the 1600s are alive today, but many of the cultures don't either, and peoples migrate. Tracking down every individual ancestor (by culture? by genes?) and allocating them their proportional art seems... challenging. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't "repatriate" some art. But I don't think it's as simple as "yes, wholeheartedly". There are fractals of complexity to untangle, and it's unclear at what point we cease to be better for trying.

smabie 7y ago

So how do we determine on what year is the so called 'reference' year? It saddens me to say this, but after having lived in Africa for two years, the artifacts are probably better off being in western museums. Though it would of course vary by country, I have a very strong feeling (and too much first hand experience) that if they were returned, they would first go to the minister of antiquities; he would give some speech about how part of the soul of the country has been recovered and then he would sell the antiquities on the black market to some foreign collector. He would then keep maybe 50% of the sale price and pay the rest as bribes to other ministers (including probably the president and prime mister) so they could all be on the same side. The best case scenario would be they went to some moldy basement of a "museum" and never looked at again. The chance of them surviving the next 10 years would probably be less than 50%.

djdjebffj66 7y ago

And can our European nations then be 'emptied' of the foreigners who continue to cause cultural, economic, and physical harm to our people to this day? If you're White and saying these things, you need to take a long hard look at yourself and consider how this hatred of our people and our history has manifested in your mind. If you're non-White you should be penalized more harshly for your racist comment than I will be for this one.