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It's still baffling that Apple is allowed to have such strict controls over their platform while still competing with the products they're charging rent to to b

It's still baffling that Apple is allowed to have such strict controls over their platform while still competing with the products they're charging rent to to be on it (i.e. iTunes & Spotify). I get why some make the analogy with Grocery Stores and stocking their in-house brands (e.g. Safeway with Signature, Apple with iTunes), but with Apple, it's like the customer has already bought the grocery store and Apple is still charging rent on their shelves. At least it looks like they're loosening the controls a bit with deals, but that's only for big overlapping partners like Amazon.

yazaddaruvala 7y ago
This might be an unpopular opinion on HN, but I don't only pay Apple for the smartphone's hardware. I'm also paying Apple to curate my experience. As a developer, I understand wanting to get access to a large user base. I understand wanting to keep costs down, especially as an indie dev. And I definitely understand wanting to keep my margins high, to fund better development but also retire early! As a customer, I'd prefer even stricter controls on the app store and even more curation to keep pushing the application quality higher. If Apple needs to charge developers to ensure the quality of applications is constantly improving, then I'm happy they do. I'm also happy to wait for a killer app[1], deploy it to Android first and then bring it over to iOS when the demand is enough to negotiate with Apple. [1] e.g. When I switched over to iOS I had to give up Swiping to type on my keyboard, for a few years till iOS was able to catch up. I understood Apple's rationale and waited. Now with iOS and a Swipe keyboard I am an even happier customer.
- askafriend 7y ago
  > I'm also paying Apple to curate my experience 100% agree. I pay the premium because of the walled garden. I prefer it. I want Apple to have a tight grip over suppliers. I want Apple to have a tight grip over the experience on their platforms. I want Apple to have a tight grip over their 3rd party developers. In fact, I say this as an engineer myself; I even develop for Apple's platform so I'm impacted by their dev-facing decisions! In my nearly 2 decade history with Apple as a customer, I often align with their principles and I want them to make decisions for me. I do not value an open platform. I only value a good user experience and I value my problems being solved in consistent and elegant ways with a focus on design. People act as if customers are somehow duped into the walled garden. NO! That's missing the entire thesis of Apple and the driving force behind their success. This is my opinion and you don't have to agree with it. I almost never express this opinion in discussions like this because why bother. But I figured it's helpful for others to see this opinion represented.
  - enos_feedler 7y ago
    Thank you for expressing your opinion here. I think it's often under-rated just how well Apple understands it's customer base and it's because these types of opinions are over-shadowed by developer gripes, especially on forums like this. One of the most impressive things I see Apple do is introduce products and features that they _know_ will land will with their existing customer base.
  - three_seagrass 7y ago
    Are those mutually exclusive though? Apple can control the user experience on the device you bought without forcing a 30% surcharge against the competition.
    - askafriend 7y ago
      > Apple can control the user experience on the device you bought without forcing a 30% surcharge against the competition. I don't disagree with you. My response was meant to be general, not a direct response to the article. I didn't mean to imply that Apple gets everything right. I just wanted to express how all the things that HN thinks Apple gets wrong, are exactly the things that I (and many others) value deeply and pay a premium for.
  - ksec 7y ago
    > I do not value an open platform. I only value a good user experience and I value my problems being solved in consistent and elegant ways with a focus on design. Fully agree. While I still criticise Apple on keyboard, hardware defects, sometimes unfair competitive advantage, I still prefer user experience over whatever ideology such as Open or Close, proprietary or Free. And I vote that with my money. The only problem is when User Experience is not up to standards, such as the early days ( and arguably even today ) Apple Music, Apple TV+, Apple Arcade. But then of coz I still have choices such as Spotify and Netflix. Again, none of that is to say I agree with charging 30/15% for its direct competitors. Given nearly 80% of the App Store platform are Gaming revenue. I wish Apple could use this opportunities to lower its fees for Non-Gaming Apps to 20% and Subscription to 10% charge. I think that is a much more fair price.
  - 7y ago
- lowdose 7y ago
  Yes, I also think that $99 annual developer account fee is keeping the app garden neat.
- kartickv 7y ago
  To the extent that the walled garden keeps quality up, I'm all for it as a user, and in agreement with you. I'm all for Apple clamping down on apps that crash, violate privacy, drain the battery, deceptively advertise prices, and so on. But I don't see how I benefit from some of Apple's moves, such as stealing 30% of developers' revenues [1] when their own apps don't have to suffer this tax, or Apple Music spamming me via push notification ads while others are forbidden from doing so. Or taking down apps that mention that they also support Android. All of these are in Apple's benefit, and against mine. In 2008, I gave the benefit of doubt to walled gardens. In 2020, it's clear that they need government regulation to stop abusing both users and developers, which a monopolist otherwise tends to do. Walled gardens are still a good idea for people like you and me, but need to be controlled. [1] When I've already paid through my nose for Apple's overpriced devices.
- wstrange 7y ago
  > I'm also paying Apple to curate my experience. Which is totally fine. But why not allow customers to make that decision? If the Apple App store truly delivers an experience that warrants a 30% uplift, consumers will pay for it.
  - ianmf 7y ago
    If Apple would allow customers bypass "the wall" by side loading apps, developers and companies will tell users to disable some security settings to install app from their website, creating a security issue for their users.
  - macintux 7y ago
    Users have demonstrated repeatedly they’re unwilling to pay for anything when there’s a free alternative (broad strokes, obviously). So some significant chunk of Apple’s users would use a 3rd party app store and experience would be down, security would be a nightmare, people would have all sorts of complaints and Apple’s reputation would take a hit.
  - sjwright 7y ago
    The curated model stops working the moment that there's any way to get around it, because enough developers will do what they think is in their best interest rather than the customer's. Anyway, the option for customers to "make that decision" exists and comes in the form of Android.
  - yazaddaruvala 7y ago
    I do make that decision. I install very few apps. I use a browser for the majority of my non-messaging phone time. I explicitly don’t want the non-walled-garden stuff to be installable on my phone (by me or my friends or my kids). I don’t want 3rd-party stuff to have the same experience/performance as a native app, which I grant more trust. I like the visual cues, permissions management and temporality while using the browser for low trust or low value add content.
- greggman3 7y ago
  Why do those 2 things need to be bundled? If you want a Blockbuster Video store with no porn for your VHS player you can go to Blockbuster Video and I can go down the street to my local Video store. We can both have a VHS machine by Sony. There's no reason your phone has to be locked by Apple for you to continue to only get apps from Apple's porn free app store. Why does your desire to have Apple curate your apps mean that I have to put with it as well? Can't you just choose to only get apps curated by Apple and I can choose to get my apps curated by someone else on the same device?
  - vlozko 7y ago
    Easy: Because Apple clearly sees it as a more profitable move and, whether you agree with them or not, contributes to an overall better user experience. Better experience = happier customers = more business.
- freepor 7y ago
  But shit like not allowing seeking from the lock screen for Spotify but allowing it for Apple Music is not “curation,” it’s anticompetitive behavior which should be illegal.
- codeisawesome 7y ago
  Would your opinion change if the EARN IT bill passes? You’d now have the App Store forced to ban apps that won’t share encryption keys with US Govt. if I understand it correctly. That complete lack of choice to side load apps with strong encryption is grating to me. I don’t know if I can trust Android either (proprietary code that calls home to Google or Samsung) so I have no idea how to choose at this point.
zyang 7y ago
It's not hard to find precedents: Nintendo owns the platform and games.
ralfd 7y ago
The real analogy is video game consoles.

yazaddaruvala 7y ago

This might be an unpopular opinion on HN, but I don't only pay Apple for the smartphone's hardware. I'm also paying Apple to curate my experience. As a developer, I understand wanting to get access to a large user base. I understand wanting to keep costs down, especially as an indie dev. And I definitely understand wanting to keep my margins high, to fund better development but also retire early! As a customer, I'd prefer even stricter controls on the app store and even more curation to keep pushing the application quality higher. If Apple needs to charge developers to ensure the quality of applications is constantly improving, then I'm happy they do. I'm also happy to wait for a killer app[1], deploy it to Android first and then bring it over to iOS when the demand is enough to negotiate with Apple. [1] e.g. When I switched over to iOS I had to give up Swiping to type on my keyboard, for a few years till iOS was able to catch up. I understood Apple's rationale and waited. Now with iOS and a Swipe keyboard I am an even happier customer.

askafriend 7y ago
> I'm also paying Apple to curate my experience 100% agree. I pay the premium because of the walled garden. I prefer it. I want Apple to have a tight grip over suppliers. I want Apple to have a tight grip over the experience on their platforms. I want Apple to have a tight grip over their 3rd party developers. In fact, I say this as an engineer myself; I even develop for Apple's platform so I'm impacted by their dev-facing decisions! In my nearly 2 decade history with Apple as a customer, I often align with their principles and I want them to make decisions for me. I do not value an open platform. I only value a good user experience and I value my problems being solved in consistent and elegant ways with a focus on design. People act as if customers are somehow duped into the walled garden. NO! That's missing the entire thesis of Apple and the driving force behind their success. This is my opinion and you don't have to agree with it. I almost never express this opinion in discussions like this because why bother. But I figured it's helpful for others to see this opinion represented.
- enos_feedler 7y ago
  Thank you for expressing your opinion here. I think it's often under-rated just how well Apple understands it's customer base and it's because these types of opinions are over-shadowed by developer gripes, especially on forums like this. One of the most impressive things I see Apple do is introduce products and features that they _know_ will land will with their existing customer base.
- three_seagrass 7y ago
  Are those mutually exclusive though? Apple can control the user experience on the device you bought without forcing a 30% surcharge against the competition.
  - askafriend 7y ago
    > Apple can control the user experience on the device you bought without forcing a 30% surcharge against the competition. I don't disagree with you. My response was meant to be general, not a direct response to the article. I didn't mean to imply that Apple gets everything right. I just wanted to express how all the things that HN thinks Apple gets wrong, are exactly the things that I (and many others) value deeply and pay a premium for.
- ksec 7y ago
  > I do not value an open platform. I only value a good user experience and I value my problems being solved in consistent and elegant ways with a focus on design. Fully agree. While I still criticise Apple on keyboard, hardware defects, sometimes unfair competitive advantage, I still prefer user experience over whatever ideology such as Open or Close, proprietary or Free. And I vote that with my money. The only problem is when User Experience is not up to standards, such as the early days ( and arguably even today ) Apple Music, Apple TV+, Apple Arcade. But then of coz I still have choices such as Spotify and Netflix. Again, none of that is to say I agree with charging 30/15% for its direct competitors. Given nearly 80% of the App Store platform are Gaming revenue. I wish Apple could use this opportunities to lower its fees for Non-Gaming Apps to 20% and Subscription to 10% charge. I think that is a much more fair price.
- 7y ago
lowdose 7y ago
Yes, I also think that $99 annual developer account fee is keeping the app garden neat.
kartickv 7y ago
To the extent that the walled garden keeps quality up, I'm all for it as a user, and in agreement with you. I'm all for Apple clamping down on apps that crash, violate privacy, drain the battery, deceptively advertise prices, and so on. But I don't see how I benefit from some of Apple's moves, such as stealing 30% of developers' revenues [1] when their own apps don't have to suffer this tax, or Apple Music spamming me via push notification ads while others are forbidden from doing so. Or taking down apps that mention that they also support Android. All of these are in Apple's benefit, and against mine. In 2008, I gave the benefit of doubt to walled gardens. In 2020, it's clear that they need government regulation to stop abusing both users and developers, which a monopolist otherwise tends to do. Walled gardens are still a good idea for people like you and me, but need to be controlled. [1] When I've already paid through my nose for Apple's overpriced devices.
wstrange 7y ago
> I'm also paying Apple to curate my experience. Which is totally fine. But why not allow customers to make that decision? If the Apple App store truly delivers an experience that warrants a 30% uplift, consumers will pay for it.
- ianmf 7y ago
  If Apple would allow customers bypass "the wall" by side loading apps, developers and companies will tell users to disable some security settings to install app from their website, creating a security issue for their users.
- macintux 7y ago
  Users have demonstrated repeatedly they’re unwilling to pay for anything when there’s a free alternative (broad strokes, obviously). So some significant chunk of Apple’s users would use a 3rd party app store and experience would be down, security would be a nightmare, people would have all sorts of complaints and Apple’s reputation would take a hit.
- sjwright 7y ago
  The curated model stops working the moment that there's any way to get around it, because enough developers will do what they think is in their best interest rather than the customer's. Anyway, the option for customers to "make that decision" exists and comes in the form of Android.
- yazaddaruvala 7y ago
  I do make that decision. I install very few apps. I use a browser for the majority of my non-messaging phone time. I explicitly don’t want the non-walled-garden stuff to be installable on my phone (by me or my friends or my kids). I don’t want 3rd-party stuff to have the same experience/performance as a native app, which I grant more trust. I like the visual cues, permissions management and temporality while using the browser for low trust or low value add content.
greggman3 7y ago
Why do those 2 things need to be bundled? If you want a Blockbuster Video store with no porn for your VHS player you can go to Blockbuster Video and I can go down the street to my local Video store. We can both have a VHS machine by Sony. There's no reason your phone has to be locked by Apple for you to continue to only get apps from Apple's porn free app store. Why does your desire to have Apple curate your apps mean that I have to put with it as well? Can't you just choose to only get apps curated by Apple and I can choose to get my apps curated by someone else on the same device?
- vlozko 7y ago
  Easy: Because Apple clearly sees it as a more profitable move and, whether you agree with them or not, contributes to an overall better user experience. Better experience = happier customers = more business.
freepor 7y ago
But shit like not allowing seeking from the lock screen for Spotify but allowing it for Apple Music is not “curation,” it’s anticompetitive behavior which should be illegal.
codeisawesome 7y ago
Would your opinion change if the EARN IT bill passes? You’d now have the App Store forced to ban apps that won’t share encryption keys with US Govt. if I understand it correctly. That complete lack of choice to side load apps with strong encryption is grating to me. I don’t know if I can trust Android either (proprietary code that calls home to Google or Samsung) so I have no idea how to choose at this point.

zyang 7y ago

It's not hard to find precedents: Nintendo owns the platform and games.

ralfd 7y ago

The real analogy is video game consoles.