14 ms·
Gavin Newsom Declares California a ‘Nation-State’
- AnimalMuppet 7y agoThat's either poor wording, or treason (or insurrection, if you prefer).
- CameronNemo 7y agoIt is neither. A nation is a social construct, and the federal government is just that: a federation (of states). Saying California is a nation-state is perfectly legal and a reasonable position to have.
- nordsieck 7y ago> the federal government is just that: a federation (of states). Sure: initially, the US was initially imagined much closer to the current European Union. That was a long time ago: a lot has changed. > Saying California is a nation-state is perfectly legal and a reasonable position to have. Not since the civil war it isn't.
- CameronNemo 7y ago>a lot has changed And a lot can change again. Last time the lines shifted seriously was the great depression. Seems like crisis is a catalyst for shifts in power structures... >Not since the civil war it isn't. Unless trump is planning on arresting governors brown and Newsom, along with dozens of former and current California legislators, this is a toothless threat. California is a nation state. Think that is treason? Run up. 33.7166357, -118.0594170
- lonelappde 7y agoSaying that you can survive defying federal sovereignty doesn't prove that you aren't defying federal sovereignty.
- CameronNemo 7y agoSaying that a war defines what is legal or illegal implies that the letter of the law is unimportant, only how the law is enforced.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y agoIndividual American states are still, by law, sovereign. They're subject to but independent of the federal government. That's why stay at home orders have been going state-by-state, for example; the President has no general authority to tell the citizens of California what to do.
- baddox 7y ago“Sovereign state” is a widely used term in international politics. It is widely accepted to refer to states at the international level which are largely independent and are capable of international relationships. One of the main limitations of US states is that only the federal government can conduct international relations.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y agoFair, that wasn't a good word for me to pick. But I think Newsom's "nation state" is still fair; it's a nation (Californians have a group identity) and a state (it has broad independent power to decide how it'll handle matters of governance).
- RhysU 7y agoBut they'll flee to Texas at the drop of a hat when they see how far their housing dollars will go. That makes California suspect as a national identity.
- baddox 7y agoSeems like if that were true then housing costs in CA would go down, and then people would move back, and then they would go up until, well, an equilibrium is reached where people are paying what they're able and willing to pay to live somewhere.
- baddox 7y agoBut again, "nation-state" is a widely used term with a widely accepted definition. That definitely is not "any region with any amount of group identity that also contains a government."
- drdeca 7y agoNot legal or not reasonable?
- nordsieck 7y agoNeither. At a practical level, the law is not that which is written down, but what is enforced. The Confederate states may have had good textual arguments why it was legal for them to secede from the US. However, they were conquered. Their claims were ultimately meaningless because they could not defend themselves. In the intervening years, the federal government has only gotten stronger. See this [1] discussion of the Little Rock Nine - particularly around the use of the National Guard as an example. At a practical level, I don't think anything will come of this, but only because California isn't trying to exercise sovereign power. ___ 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Rock_Nine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Rock_Nine
- drdeca 7y agoI didn’t think the question was whether it was legal for California to defy federal laws or actually secede (which of course it wouldn’t be illegal ), but rather whether the official making the claim in words (but not actions) that California is a “nation state” was legal
- nordsieck 7y ago> whether the official making the claim in words (but not actions) that California is a “nation state” was legal IANAL I have to imagine it is. The first amendment is quite broad. As long as no one is urging people to take concrete steps (e.g. don't pay federal income tax) I think pretty much anything is on the table.
- baddox 7y agoOf course I don’t think it’s treason, but it is likely a deliberate non-standard use the term. “Nation-state” is widely used to refer to nations which act as sovereign states on the international stage. US states are not widely viewed as sovereign states, largely because their ability to enter into direct relationships with other countries is largely limited.
- CameronNemo 7y agoI think Newsom is trying to convey that California will act as a sovereign state on the international stage, in an economic capacity. He may even be engaging in diplomatic missions to secure necessary protective equipment. Treaties are not the only way to be an international actor. California's capacity to make credible commitments is severely limited by the constitutional restrictions on states ability to enter contracts with foreign actors, but that may not be enough to stop Newsom from forging informal agreements.
- lonelappde 7y agoDoes that make Google or Apple a nation-state? They can make large international purchases too.
- CameronNemo 7y agoThey have no territory, government, or national identity.
- henriquez 7y agoI would say none of the above. The EU is a federation of “nation states.” Its just a matter of frames of reference. California has a bigger economy than most countries and that does give them disproportionate clout in terms of shaping federal policy, as well as a ton of responsibilities that smaller states don’t have to deal with to the same degree.
- lasky 7y agothis kind of "journalism" makes me sad. In my view it's plainly an attempt to scratch an itch to validate our disappointment with the lack of empathy we see in GOP politics; but instead of expressing that, the author stokes hate and "other-ness" and encourages people to interpret words people say as evidence for their visions of extreme separatist versions of the future... which further breads more lack of empathy in others, and the spiral continues. Fear mongering and visions of separatism exist on both sides of the party lines.
- bitexploder 7y agoIt’s just, in the case of this pandemic, one side is actively getting people killed and the other is trying to avoid that. Somehow that became political.
- sudosysgen 7y agoI mean, it is. In a sense, almost everything is political.
- bitexploder 7y agoViruses don’t really kill based on party affiliation.
- sudosysgen 7y agoPolitics != Party affiliation. Which policies are instituted decide with a large effect who and how much are killed by the virus. Deciding the implementations of those policies, is in fact politics.
- redis_mlc 7y agoIf you're a Republican, realize that your party actively undermines democracy when it restricts voting or engages in gerrymandering. And there's no excuse for that whatsoever.
- redis_mlc 7y agoFor those not familiar with US politics and culture, California is the the most influential on both. Trends that start in California go nationwide in about 5 years. So take what Governor Newsom says very seriously - it's a crystal ball. Historically, the Governor of the State of California also has an outsized shot at being President. Reagan is one example, and the only reason The Terminator didn't run is because of citizenship requirements (he was born in Austria.) You can bet President Newsom is in our future.
- baddox 7y agoSeveral states have had a single governor later become President. New York is in the lead with 4 governors becoming President (FDR being the most recent).
- bydo 7y agoWhat? There’s been one US president who was previously governor of California (Reagan) and one who unsuccessfully ran for governor (Nixon). No other political candidate from California has even been nominated. We’ve had seven presidents from Ohio.
- kbrwn 7y agoNewsom said the American presidency, "sounds like the worst job ever." Not everyone seeks more power. Maybe Newsom is happy to lead a nation-state without a minority party blocking every initiative he would ever put forward.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- WalterBright 7y agoI don't see any reason why state governors should sit around waiting for the federal government to provide masks and order emergency actions. The governors are empowered to do those things, and it's their job to do so. In fact, California used to have a huge stockpile of medical supplies, put in place by Arnold (a Republican). It was abandoned under the Democratic Governors, and disposed of. Edit: found the cite https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-03-27/coronavirus-california-mobile-hospitals-ventilators https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-03-27/coronavi...
- Saaster 7y agoBecause it makes literally no sense for 50 states to compete and outbid each other for a scarce set of resources when you already have an umbrella organization, the Federal government, that could coordinate the purchases and the allocation as not every state is hitting the peak at the same time. But it's seemingly every state for themselves instead. A complete failure and lack of leadership and shirking of responsibility from the Federal government, directly contributing to a loss of American lives.
- panzagl 7y agoWhen it comes to disasters, the Federal government's job is to write checks- they're the gov't equivalent of homeowner's insurance. You may wish it were otherwise, but that is not how it is currently set up.
- unlinked_dll 7y agoGovernor Newsom refers to California as a "nation state" about once a week, in case the author was wondering. He's used that language quite often. I'm totally ok with it, so long as the Federal government remains impotent and balks at California's efforts to manage itself, while simultaneously being run by the party of "states rights." Purely in spite of the lack of leadership and outright derision for our needs as a state, regardless of being home to over a tenth of the population and being our breadbasket and technological power house. I know not all Californians agree on everything, but I think we can all come together and recognize that we do have to look out for our state as if it was an independent nation these days. Because the Feds aren't going to help us when we need it, just tax us and tell us we can't have proportional representation.
- AnimalMuppet 7y agoCalifornia's our breadbasket? Um, no. Salad bowl, perhaps, but that's not the same thing...
- ericmcer 7y agoI wish there was a better method for deducting state taxes from federal, especially with Trumps repeated "States should handle this problem on their own" stance when 85% of my taxes are going to federal govt.
- panzagl 7y agoIf 85% of your taxes are going to the federal government, you don't live in California.
- jackfoxy 7y agoCalifornia has proportional representation in the House of Representatives. California used to have proportional and geographic representation internally in a bicameral state legislature. Then came the Supreme Court's one man one vote ruling. Now southern California has pure proportional representation and gets all the fresh water it demands from northern California, environmental concerns be damned. Be careful what you wish for.
- exabrial 7y agoThis makes happy... because this is how things _are supposed to work_ in a Republic. Power was never supposed to be concentrated heavily at the Federal level. It's much easier to kick policies you don't like at state levels and not be ruled by people in physically/culturally distant areas.
- Nerdfest 7y agoThis is not power. This is aid, planning, money, and ideally to show some semblance of leadership.
- fennecfoxen 7y agoWe have governors declaring they will seize medical equipment from its owners. We have mayors of major cities advocating for us to conscript medical personnel via the Selective Service. We have the President invoking the Defense Production Act and telling private companies to manufacture goods. We have governors and mayors and county-level medical officials across the nation outlawing religious services and declaring that it is illegal for people to leave their homes except under a list of officially approved circumstances. Behold, the power.
- exabrial 7y agoI'd rather take on the commanding force [guard] of a US state than the federal government of the US. Again, it was designed this way intentionally.
- vearwhershuh 7y agoThe best thing that could happen to the United States would be an amicable divorce. It is ridiculous to have national elections matter so much at the local level and come down to a few counties in a few contested states, remote from the vast majority of citizens. Edit: It's heartening to see all the principled federalism and subsidiarity here in the HN comments. I'm sure it would be the same if a Democrat were in office and a Republican governer were talking this way, no?
- maxerickson 7y agoThe media presents election results as if that is what happens, but most states are winner take all, county and district lines don't matter: https://www.270towin.com/alternative-electoral-college-allocation-methods/ https://www.270towin.com/alternative-electoral-college-alloc... Probably the simplest/most possible step forward would be to expand the House of Representatives by quite a bit.
- lonelappde 7y agoA small nation has less coordinated power and would get walked over by USSR and China. If the US was 50 small nations in WWII, Hitler more likely would have won.
- gremlinsinc 7y agoFrance, Germany, etc all have their own armies but are part of the EU, and United Nations. The states could be more like that.. a loose federation that only comes together in times of war but other than that the state decides their own constitutions, etc..and have their own presidents/etc..
- andbberger 7y agoI've always liked the idea of flipping the tax situation so states keep the vast majority and the feds get peanuts - attacks the root of federal power. How could CA accomplish that? I guess we need our own tax collection agency?
- WalterBright 7y agoCalifornia (as all states do) already has their own tax collection agency.
- maxerickson 7y agoIt would have to attempt to withdraw from the United States.
- pmart123 7y agoNo. People would just have to vote politicians in that support more power at the state level. This has happened throughout US history. Secession is unconstitutional, and no state has a military. In fact, the US military would already be there (and most troops stationed there likely wouldn't be from that state).
- maxerickson 7y ago"attempt" I'm going to repeat my point, and try to expand a bit, to maybe make it clearer. To unilaterally change where taxes go, California would have to attempt to withdraw from the United States. There's no other mechanism for a state to directly reduce their federal tax burden. Sure, people across the country could elect federal officials that were committed to reducing the importance of the federal government, but then it isn't California doing it, it's the whole US doing it.
- pmart123 7y agoCities and also states will be in a precarious financial situation after this. There is a danger this allows for the federal government to exert further power and control. Since history often rhymes: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/07/four-times-the-government-held-highway-funding-hostage/454167/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/07/four-ti... Rather than a single state attempting to withdraw, it would likely have to be a coalition of states acting upon a unified effort for increased state rights. If representatives in NY/Tri-state, CA, IL, MA, etc. acted in unison, it would likely be more effective.
- nojvek 7y agoDo states have the power to riot and say “we’re not going to pay federal taxes, because well ... the federal government did fuck all and gave us the middle finger when we most needed them” The pandemic from the start when Trump saying “its only one person, we totally have it in control” to the change of opinions on masks, to the lies really feels like a shit show. Yet he has massive support. It baffles my mind.
- tgafpc2 7y agoOk, bye! Been super fun!