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> 2) China trying to use soft power, but the whole drama feels fake. It is good that they are sending supplies (often faulty and not up to the quality, see dutc

> 2) China trying to use soft power, but the whole drama feels fake. It is good that they are sending supplies (often faulty and not up to the quality, see dutch story around this) but it doesn't feel genuine. Allow me to disagree with this one. I see people questioning China's motives on helping other countries, but in my opinion this is a baseless and overly cynical view of things, not truth. People want to buy into the "China has motives" story so much, that they jump on every incident that may imply that. The Dutch situation is typical. FYI: I am Dutch. Research has shown that mistakes were made on the Dutch side: because of haste and pressure (because supplies are low), and because the buyers didn't fully understand Chinese mask standards, they ordered the wrong thing. China did not intentionally send bad masks, nor was it a manufacturing quality problem.

rorykoehler 7y ago
The CCP don't have a great track record of giving a shit about people at home. What makes you think they care for anything but the opportunity/ability to project more power abroad?
- FooBarWidget 7y ago
  I will also have to disagree on that one. I was born in China, I now live in Europe, and "CCP doesn't give a shit about people" is a bad western stereotype. Of course, define "caring". Does any other government, including democratic ones, truly care about people? Debatable. But what I'm saying is that CCP is not the mass-murdering villain that Hacker News makes it out to be. What about censorship, etc? Yes bad things do happen. Lots of good things also happen. Just like all countries, nothing is perfect. I don't need to remind you of all the human rights violations by the US. The point is: you need to have a more nuanced understanding of the CCP than that of a cartoon villain. Here are some facts: all coronavirus patients got free treatment, free stays in isolation hotels, all Wuhan residents got free food delivered to their homes. In contrast to what happened here in Europe, the CCP took a strong stance to save as many of their own citizen as they can instead of worrying about economic impact. You may not believe me. But take a look at these: "I'm sitting home in Wuhan and eating free vegetables and fish govt sent me and you tell me it hurts my human rights???" -- https://twitter.com/ClaireRChen/status/1241971786062770176?s=20 https://twitter.com/ClaireRChen/status/1241971786062770176?s... New Wuhan Doctor Speaks Out From Ground Zero -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyUHz62Uan8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyUHz62Uan8 American and Canadian, living & studying in China, talk about how it is actually like there -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufxfSJgQuSI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufxfSJgQuSI
  - philliphaydon 7y ago
    > I was born in China Did you earn your red scarf?
    - FooBarWidget 7y ago
      Yes I did. Not even kidding. You get it when you generally behave like a good student at school. Maybe you associate it with something else (probably Mao mass murdering or w/e) but most Chinese see it as a pretty normal school thing.
      - philliphaydon 7y ago
        Correct, you get it when you show loyalty to ccp.
        tly_alex 7y ago
        Stereotypes like this is just unbelievable in this days and in HN.
        dang 7y ago
        I understand the feeling. Unfortunately it's inevitable that stereotypes etc. end up on HN, simply because HN is millions of people. At any moment, some population sample is getting activated by something that appears here and someone will get triggered into commenting. It's important not to generalize from posts like that to the entire community, because if you do it will feel like you're surrounded by enemies, when the opposite is true. I sometimes find it helpful to replace "HN" with "large statistical distribution" in a sentence. It's usually true and makes things less dismaying.
    - ubermon 7y ago
      I am quite surprised to see those stereotypes on hacker news . Looking at all the accounts with names like systemxxx and throwawayxxx, I feel conspiracy theory is no joke
magicsmoke 7y ago
Considering this is an English site, most of the participants here are probably from the Anglosphere which, being led by the US, would tend to mistrust China. It's interesting how you mention that as Dutch and European, you don't have the same level of mistrust. Without a measure of how China is viewed, not just in the Anglosphere, but in Africa, Latin America, Southeast Asia, South Asia, the Islamic world, Central Asia, and other cultural and linguistic spheres that a typical native English speaker wouldn't be able to communicate with, it's really hard to tell how effective China's soft power moves are.
- not_exactly__ 7y ago
  The soft power only works on those that haven’t been exposed to it long enough. If you’ve dealt with China for a while, you know the real deal.
  - magicsmoke 7y ago
    Want to give which geographical region you're from so I can put it down as an anecdotal datapoint?
    - not_exactly__ 7y ago
      Lived in China. Also lots of African friends who don’t appreciate how the Chinese do business in their country.
      - FooBarWidget 7y ago
        How do they do business? Are those Chinese representing private companies, or state companies?
    - Papirola 7y ago
      Care to give yours?
      - 7y ago
not_exactly__ 7y ago
> “ but in my opinion this is a baseless and overly cynical view of things, not truth.” It’s neither baseless or overly cynical if you’ve ever lived in China or have just spent enough time observing the CCP’s actions.
- FooBarWidget 7y ago
  I was born in China. I have family there. My wife is Chinese. I disagree.
system16 7y ago
> they ordered the wrong thing. China did not intentionally send bad masks, nor was it a manufacturing quality problem. That doesn't align with what's being reported (by other countries as well): > "Thousands of testing kits and medical masks are below standard or defective, according to authorities in Spain, Turkey and the Netherlands." > "Dutch officials said that the masks did not fit and that their filters did not work as intended, even though they had a quality certificate," https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52092395 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52092395
- FooBarWidget 7y ago
  That's what they initially said, before the research happened. That caused China to be upset. After the research it turns out to be an order problem on the Dutch side after all.
- FooBarWidget 7y ago
  My sources: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22825391 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22825391
nlfwhulsdhouv 7y ago
Anytime the CCP does something bad it's some systemic issue with insane conspiratorial motivation that every citizen is complacent in. Anytime the US does something bad it's 'realpolitik', or 'just a bad government, not everyone believes that'. If you enumerate all the domestic human rights abuses of the US it doesn't look much better. Internationally, it's much worse. Hell, the US barely has 'democracy'. The chance of your vote _actually_ counting is small, and the two parties are barely better than a strict illusion of choice. It's nothing more than another red scare. And before people jump down my throat... I don't think the CCP is _good_ either, I would dissolve both governments if it was up to me.
billfruit 7y ago
The amount of anti China sentiment in the US media is hyperbolic, that it is not possible to trust most US based media houses reports in this topic. This topic has become too politicised by people and organisations with hawkish motives that sane discussion on this has become impossible.

rorykoehler 7y ago

The CCP don't have a great track record of giving a shit about people at home. What makes you think they care for anything but the opportunity/ability to project more power abroad?

FooBarWidget 7y ago
I will also have to disagree on that one. I was born in China, I now live in Europe, and "CCP doesn't give a shit about people" is a bad western stereotype. Of course, define "caring". Does any other government, including democratic ones, truly care about people? Debatable. But what I'm saying is that CCP is not the mass-murdering villain that Hacker News makes it out to be. What about censorship, etc? Yes bad things do happen. Lots of good things also happen. Just like all countries, nothing is perfect. I don't need to remind you of all the human rights violations by the US. The point is: you need to have a more nuanced understanding of the CCP than that of a cartoon villain. Here are some facts: all coronavirus patients got free treatment, free stays in isolation hotels, all Wuhan residents got free food delivered to their homes. In contrast to what happened here in Europe, the CCP took a strong stance to save as many of their own citizen as they can instead of worrying about economic impact. You may not believe me. But take a look at these: "I'm sitting home in Wuhan and eating free vegetables and fish govt sent me and you tell me it hurts my human rights???" -- https://twitter.com/ClaireRChen/status/1241971786062770176?s=20 https://twitter.com/ClaireRChen/status/1241971786062770176?s... New Wuhan Doctor Speaks Out From Ground Zero -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyUHz62Uan8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyUHz62Uan8 American and Canadian, living & studying in China, talk about how it is actually like there -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufxfSJgQuSI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufxfSJgQuSI
- philliphaydon 7y ago
  > I was born in China Did you earn your red scarf?
  - FooBarWidget 7y ago
    Yes I did. Not even kidding. You get it when you generally behave like a good student at school. Maybe you associate it with something else (probably Mao mass murdering or w/e) but most Chinese see it as a pretty normal school thing.
    - philliphaydon 7y ago
      Correct, you get it when you show loyalty to ccp.
      - tly_alex 7y ago
        Stereotypes like this is just unbelievable in this days and in HN.
        dang 7y ago
        I understand the feeling. Unfortunately it's inevitable that stereotypes etc. end up on HN, simply because HN is millions of people. At any moment, some population sample is getting activated by something that appears here and someone will get triggered into commenting. It's important not to generalize from posts like that to the entire community, because if you do it will feel like you're surrounded by enemies, when the opposite is true. I sometimes find it helpful to replace "HN" with "large statistical distribution" in a sentence. It's usually true and makes things less dismaying.
  - ubermon 7y ago
    I am quite surprised to see those stereotypes on hacker news . Looking at all the accounts with names like systemxxx and throwawayxxx, I feel conspiracy theory is no joke

magicsmoke 7y ago

Considering this is an English site, most of the participants here are probably from the Anglosphere which, being led by the US, would tend to mistrust China. It's interesting how you mention that as Dutch and European, you don't have the same level of mistrust. Without a measure of how China is viewed, not just in the Anglosphere, but in Africa, Latin America, Southeast Asia, South Asia, the Islamic world, Central Asia, and other cultural and linguistic spheres that a typical native English speaker wouldn't be able to communicate with, it's really hard to tell how effective China's soft power moves are.

not_exactly__ 7y ago
The soft power only works on those that haven’t been exposed to it long enough. If you’ve dealt with China for a while, you know the real deal.
- magicsmoke 7y ago
  Want to give which geographical region you're from so I can put it down as an anecdotal datapoint?
  - not_exactly__ 7y ago
    Lived in China. Also lots of African friends who don’t appreciate how the Chinese do business in their country.
    - FooBarWidget 7y ago
      How do they do business? Are those Chinese representing private companies, or state companies?
  - Papirola 7y ago
    Care to give yours?
    - 7y ago

not_exactly__ 7y ago

> “ but in my opinion this is a baseless and overly cynical view of things, not truth.” It’s neither baseless or overly cynical if you’ve ever lived in China or have just spent enough time observing the CCP’s actions.

FooBarWidget 7y ago
I was born in China. I have family there. My wife is Chinese. I disagree.

system16 7y ago

> they ordered the wrong thing. China did not intentionally send bad masks, nor was it a manufacturing quality problem. That doesn't align with what's being reported (by other countries as well): > "Thousands of testing kits and medical masks are below standard or defective, according to authorities in Spain, Turkey and the Netherlands." > "Dutch officials said that the masks did not fit and that their filters did not work as intended, even though they had a quality certificate," https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52092395 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52092395

FooBarWidget 7y ago
That's what they initially said, before the research happened. That caused China to be upset. After the research it turns out to be an order problem on the Dutch side after all.
FooBarWidget 7y ago
My sources: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22825391 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22825391

nlfwhulsdhouv 7y ago

Anytime the CCP does something bad it's some systemic issue with insane conspiratorial motivation that every citizen is complacent in. Anytime the US does something bad it's 'realpolitik', or 'just a bad government, not everyone believes that'. If you enumerate all the domestic human rights abuses of the US it doesn't look much better. Internationally, it's much worse. Hell, the US barely has 'democracy'. The chance of your vote _actually_ counting is small, and the two parties are barely better than a strict illusion of choice. It's nothing more than another red scare. And before people jump down my throat... I don't think the CCP is _good_ either, I would dissolve both governments if it was up to me.

billfruit 7y ago

The amount of anti China sentiment in the US media is hyperbolic, that it is not possible to trust most US based media houses reports in this topic. This topic has become too politicised by people and organisations with hawkish motives that sane discussion on this has become impossible.