5 ms·

Bradley Manning Charged With 22 New Counts, Including Capital Offense

42 points by ssclafani 16y ago

jarin 16y ago
I'm not exactly sure what punishment he should get, but it's definitely not the death penalty (or life in prison either, for that matter). You know who should get life in prison? Whoever wrote up SIPRNET's network security policies and whoever's responsible for implementing them.
- nkassis 16y ago
  If you could prove that there was obvious negligence (and incompetence) while designing and implementing the network then yeah some charges should be brought in my opinion. I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that engineers are can be charged if a building they designed collapses due to bad design.
  - anthonyb 16y ago
    They'll generally get charged if they don't follow standard precautions eg. getting sign off on the design from a second, independent engineer.
- trotsky 16y ago
  Pretty sure SIPRNET IA policies were relaxed dramatically as a response to 9/11, when there was a strong belief that various agencies and groups restrictive data policies were hurting AT cooperation. Now, of course, I'm sure they've been tightened again. Kind of a damned if you do scenario.
  - darksaga 16y ago
    I would think the people who designed the system would have had several layers of security as it relates to their database. I've only designed a few myself, but even I know all your users shouldn't have the same privileges. The more I read this story, the more I wonder why a private 1st class had full blown access to classified documents. It seems like security was an after thought, and now they're paying the price.
    - trotsky 16y ago
      It's the same issue to, in addition to interdepartmental sharing the belief was that overly restricting information inside organizations could keep it out of the hands of the one analyst that would put "plot x" together. Keep in mind Manning was an intelligence analyst, and the documents he distributed were of low classification levels.
      - rdl 16y ago
        I think the bigger issue was with allowing him to retain access to classified data while obviously disgruntled and having issues with his chain of command. His unit should have pulled his clearance (if it ever should have been granted) once it became clear he was going to be separated from the army for cause, etc. I hope his (transgendered, or gay, or something) sexual identity doesn't color public perception of the end of DADT; there are plenty of non-heterosexual members of the military who are not security risks. However, if he was getting separated over some "transition" related issues, that information would be relevant to a security clearance review in his particular case.
api 16y ago
So the USA is executing dissidents now?
- amock 16y ago
  He's not being charged with being a dissident, he's being charged with treason.
- tzs 16y ago
  The Army has filed 22 new counts against suspected WikiLeaks source Bradley Manning, among them a capital offense for which the government said it would not seek the death penalty. That's the first sentence of the article.
Joakal 16y ago
The military justice system in USA is a human rights joke: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_Guantanamo_Bay_detainees_accused_of_possessing_Casio_watches https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_Guant... https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Bradley_Manning#Detention https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Bradley_Manni...
- philwelch 16y ago
  There's a major, important distinction between the kangaroo "military tribunals" Bush tried to set up for Gitmo detainees and the UCMJ. Nearly every veteran I've discussed the matter with would rather be prosecuted under the UCMJ than the civilian justice system.
- sp332 16y ago
  There have been some (recently a lot of) problems, but speaking in general terms, the US courts-martial have been and are a model of military justice the world over. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courts-martial_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courts-martial_in_the_United_St... The main trouble lately has been the use of military tribunals against civilians or "enemy combatants" instead of courts-martial or civilian courts. I'm all for calling out abuses, but I think it's a bit much to say the whole justice system is a joke.
  - Joakal 16y ago
    True. However, justice systems tend to be absolutists. That's why confessions under duress aren't admission-able for example. To see a select few can abuse the due process when they can, means that the system needs improvement. Plus, as you say, it's being used against civilians and enemy combatants.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
patrickaljord 16y ago
From http://change.gov/agenda/ethics_agenda/ http://change.gov/agenda/ethics_agenda/ "Protect Whistleblowers: Often the best source of information about waste, fraud, and abuse in government is an existing government employee committed to public integrity and willing to speak out. Such acts of courage and patriotism, which can sometimes save lives and often save taxpayer dollars, should be encouraged rather than stifled. We need to empower federal employees as watchdogs of wrongdoing and partners in performance. Barack Obama will strengthen whistleblower laws to protect federal workers who expose waste, fraud, and abuse of authority in government. Obama will ensure that federal agencies expedite the process for reviewing whistleblower claims and whistleblowers have full access to courts and due process."
- maukdaddy 16y ago
  What he did is not even close to whistle blowing and you know it.
  - patrickaljord 16y ago
    “EVERY attack now made on WikiLeaks and Julian Assange was made against me and the release of the Pentagon Papers at the time.” http://www.ellsberg.net/archive/public-accuracy-press-release http://www.ellsberg.net/archive/public-accuracy-press-releas...
    - jbooth 16y ago
      Whistleblowing would be if the things he was leaking about were illegal activities that need to be stopped. You could sort of make an argument about war crimes for some of the leaks but it'd be a huge stretch to call it whistleblowing when he dumps a bunch of mostly-innocent cables en masse. And I love wikileaks and what they're doing. But if you're the military here, you have to throw the book at the guy.
    - tzs 16y ago
      What does this have to do with what Manning (allegedly) did?
localhost3000 16y ago
It's impossible to feel sorry for this guy. How could you ever think this was a good idea?
tzs 16y ago
Flagging this because too many people are downvoting people they politically disagree with, meaning this is going to become a worthless discussion.
- DanielBMarkham 16y ago
  Agreed. Seems like anything with "Manning" in it here is a guaranteed flame war.
- anthonyb 16y ago
  Nah, I'm downvoting people (like you) who aren't bothering to read people's posts properly. I think the main problem is that the American media is ridiculously pro-military/anti-wikileaks, so it's hard to get unbiased information.
  - tzs 16y ago
    You've now twice accused me of improperly reading other people's posts. Yet your reply to my comment about the risks in the unedited documents showed that you certainly are not reading properly.
    - anthonyb 16y ago
      I read what you wrote - I just disagree with you.
paul9290 16y ago
Per this article http://news.scotsman.com/world/Tunisia-Uprising-called-first-39Wikileaks.6692071.jp http://news.scotsman.com/world/Tunisia-Uprising-called-first... these leaked documents were an impetus that led to the fall of Tunisia's monarchy. Which then has brought on a domino effect in the Middle East; Egypt, Libya, Yemen, etc... Depending on the long term out-come of the change in the Middle East(for the better) this guy's actions might not seem so bad in ten years?

42 points by ssclafani 16y ago

jarin 16y ago

I'm not exactly sure what punishment he should get, but it's definitely not the death penalty (or life in prison either, for that matter). You know who should get life in prison? Whoever wrote up SIPRNET's network security policies and whoever's responsible for implementing them.

nkassis 16y ago
If you could prove that there was obvious negligence (and incompetence) while designing and implementing the network then yeah some charges should be brought in my opinion. I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that engineers are can be charged if a building they designed collapses due to bad design.
- anthonyb 16y ago
  They'll generally get charged if they don't follow standard precautions eg. getting sign off on the design from a second, independent engineer.
trotsky 16y ago
Pretty sure SIPRNET IA policies were relaxed dramatically as a response to 9/11, when there was a strong belief that various agencies and groups restrictive data policies were hurting AT cooperation. Now, of course, I'm sure they've been tightened again. Kind of a damned if you do scenario.
- darksaga 16y ago
  I would think the people who designed the system would have had several layers of security as it relates to their database. I've only designed a few myself, but even I know all your users shouldn't have the same privileges. The more I read this story, the more I wonder why a private 1st class had full blown access to classified documents. It seems like security was an after thought, and now they're paying the price.
  - trotsky 16y ago
    It's the same issue to, in addition to interdepartmental sharing the belief was that overly restricting information inside organizations could keep it out of the hands of the one analyst that would put "plot x" together. Keep in mind Manning was an intelligence analyst, and the documents he distributed were of low classification levels.
    - rdl 16y ago
      I think the bigger issue was with allowing him to retain access to classified data while obviously disgruntled and having issues with his chain of command. His unit should have pulled his clearance (if it ever should have been granted) once it became clear he was going to be separated from the army for cause, etc. I hope his (transgendered, or gay, or something) sexual identity doesn't color public perception of the end of DADT; there are plenty of non-heterosexual members of the military who are not security risks. However, if he was getting separated over some "transition" related issues, that information would be relevant to a security clearance review in his particular case.

api 16y ago

So the USA is executing dissidents now?

amock 16y ago
He's not being charged with being a dissident, he's being charged with treason.
tzs 16y ago
The Army has filed 22 new counts against suspected WikiLeaks source Bradley Manning, among them a capital offense for which the government said it would not seek the death penalty. That's the first sentence of the article.

Joakal 16y ago

The military justice system in USA is a human rights joke: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_Guantanamo_Bay_detainees_accused_of_possessing_Casio_watches https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_Guant... https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Bradley_Manning#Detention https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Bradley_Manni...

philwelch 16y ago
There's a major, important distinction between the kangaroo "military tribunals" Bush tried to set up for Gitmo detainees and the UCMJ. Nearly every veteran I've discussed the matter with would rather be prosecuted under the UCMJ than the civilian justice system.
sp332 16y ago
There have been some (recently a lot of) problems, but speaking in general terms, the US courts-martial have been and are a model of military justice the world over. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courts-martial_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courts-martial_in_the_United_St... The main trouble lately has been the use of military tribunals against civilians or "enemy combatants" instead of courts-martial or civilian courts. I'm all for calling out abuses, but I think it's a bit much to say the whole justice system is a joke.
- Joakal 16y ago
  True. However, justice systems tend to be absolutists. That's why confessions under duress aren't admission-able for example. To see a select few can abuse the due process when they can, means that the system needs improvement. Plus, as you say, it's being used against civilians and enemy combatants.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

patrickaljord 16y ago

From http://change.gov/agenda/ethics_agenda/ http://change.gov/agenda/ethics_agenda/ "Protect Whistleblowers: Often the best source of information about waste, fraud, and abuse in government is an existing government employee committed to public integrity and willing to speak out. Such acts of courage and patriotism, which can sometimes save lives and often save taxpayer dollars, should be encouraged rather than stifled. We need to empower federal employees as watchdogs of wrongdoing and partners in performance. Barack Obama will strengthen whistleblower laws to protect federal workers who expose waste, fraud, and abuse of authority in government. Obama will ensure that federal agencies expedite the process for reviewing whistleblower claims and whistleblowers have full access to courts and due process."

maukdaddy 16y ago
What he did is not even close to whistle blowing and you know it.
- patrickaljord 16y ago
  “EVERY attack now made on WikiLeaks and Julian Assange was made against me and the release of the Pentagon Papers at the time.” http://www.ellsberg.net/archive/public-accuracy-press-release http://www.ellsberg.net/archive/public-accuracy-press-releas...
  - jbooth 16y ago
    Whistleblowing would be if the things he was leaking about were illegal activities that need to be stopped. You could sort of make an argument about war crimes for some of the leaks but it'd be a huge stretch to call it whistleblowing when he dumps a bunch of mostly-innocent cables en masse. And I love wikileaks and what they're doing. But if you're the military here, you have to throw the book at the guy.
  - tzs 16y ago
    What does this have to do with what Manning (allegedly) did?

localhost3000 16y ago

It's impossible to feel sorry for this guy. How could you ever think this was a good idea?

tzs 16y ago

Flagging this because too many people are downvoting people they politically disagree with, meaning this is going to become a worthless discussion.

DanielBMarkham 16y ago
Agreed. Seems like anything with "Manning" in it here is a guaranteed flame war.
anthonyb 16y ago
Nah, I'm downvoting people (like you) who aren't bothering to read people's posts properly. I think the main problem is that the American media is ridiculously pro-military/anti-wikileaks, so it's hard to get unbiased information.
- tzs 16y ago
  You've now twice accused me of improperly reading other people's posts. Yet your reply to my comment about the risks in the unedited documents showed that you certainly are not reading properly.
  - anthonyb 16y ago
    I read what you wrote - I just disagree with you.

paul9290 16y ago

Per this article http://news.scotsman.com/world/Tunisia-Uprising-called-first-39Wikileaks.6692071.jp http://news.scotsman.com/world/Tunisia-Uprising-called-first... these leaked documents were an impetus that led to the fall of Tunisia's monarchy. Which then has brought on a domino effect in the Middle East; Egypt, Libya, Yemen, etc... Depending on the long term out-come of the change in the Middle East(for the better) this guy's actions might not seem so bad in ten years?