5 ms·

I'm definitely not that person, but that level of dedication to religion is absolutely amazing to me. Outside of my family, and maybe that was the real motivato

I'm definitely not that person, but that level of dedication to religion is absolutely amazing to me. Outside of my family, and maybe that was the real motivator, I don't have a single thing in my life that I am that devoted to. Humans are marvelous, fascinating creatures.

thefounder 7y ago
>> Outside of my family, and maybe that was the real motivator, I don't have a single thing in my life that I am that devoted to. I believe it's really more about fear(of death/hell) than devotion. Most religions have pretty effective rituals/routines to keep you in that kid of state. Once hooked-in it's hard to get out.
- kleiba 7y ago
  That sounds like an over-generalization to me, though.
  - thefounder 7y ago
    Religions are pretty similar. At least the most popular ones.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  They fled religious persecution. They and the people they associated with were treated like crap by the Tsars and then the Bolsheviks showed up and cranked it to 11. I think that fear of persecution was the real motivator that kept them from going back. I think it's easy to see where the expectation that "If we show back up after years they will instantly take our kids and throw us in jail" comes from.
  - lb1lf 7y ago
    -Taking the opportunity to suggest that anyone remotely interested in the old believers - or Dukhabors - go find a copy of Philip Marsden’s eminent exploration of the south Caucasus Dukhabor heartlands in his book ‘The Spirit-Wrestlers’. Part travelogue, part history, part religious - it is one of the most beautiful books I’ve ever read.
- war1025 7y ago
  > I believe it's really more about fear(of death/hell) than devotion. I disagree. Religion isn't about being afraid, it's about learning to cope. Rituals are important because rituals are rote. You can fall back on them when life is spiraling out of control and find a foothold. I think one of the big problems that modern Christianity faces (since that is the tradition I am part of) is that it has shifted to focus too much on the feminine side of things. There is a reason churches are predominately filled with women. The things the church focuses on appeal to women. The church and religion have a place for men too, but broadly what men need from religion is not what is being delivered. One of my favorite hymn lines is "Learn from Jesus Christ to die". To me, that is what the church offers that appeals most directly to me. How to face mortality, failure, and uncertainty. Several years ago when my father was dying of cancer, it's something I leaned on heavily. When you are too devastated to think clearly, you fall back on the rituals that you can perform without thinking and take solace from the wisdom within them.
  - thefounder 7y ago
    >> I disagree. Religion isn't about being afraid, it's about learning to cope. It's no wonder that we become religious when we are most vulnerable. Giving up control gives us comfort. Religions have a ready answer for everything but don't be mistaken, they always double down on fear because fear sells well. "All" the religions threaten with hell in this life and the afterlife if you dare to dissaffiliate. Not to mention that deep down you know that without religion you are doomed to face a harsh reality. I used to believe that religions serve a therapeutic need but unfortunately they've been twiested in so many ways , they try to be so many things that I can't see them more than some tales of wisdom like the Greek mythology. I belive it's a red and blue pill choice. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_pill_and_blue_pill https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_pill_and_blue_pill
chasingthewind 7y ago
One of my key takeaways from this story was just how "minor" the schism that produced this appears to me. I am a Christian and take doctrine very seriously but I find the issues that the Old Believers [0] were concerned about utterly baffling. In the linked article, the table of the "main" differences are shockingly trivial from my perspective and include: 1) How "Jesus" is spelled 2) How to hold your fingers when making the sign of the cross 3) Procession direction (CW vs CCW) 4) etc. That either side was willing to kill or die over these things is something I simply can't understand. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers
- deepsun 7y ago
  Well, I think those are just markers. I think the real issue began with mass murdering of Old Believers during Nikon reforms, which were mainly about power (to separate from Constantinople).
  - int_19h 7y ago
    By the time Nikon reforms happen, the Russian Orthodox Church already had its own independent patriarch. And in fact, the reforms were about making things more like what the Greek church was doing at the time. Russian traditions, meanwhile, were based on old Greek ones, and basically better conserved. It went above and beyond matters of dogma and ritual, even down to stuff like clothing and hairstyles. Tsar Aleksei was also a Grecophile, and to him this was less abstract than just church issues - he was seriously eyeing Constantinople as a potential "Orthodox Reconquista", with himself as the new Constantine -the emperor of the Orthodox faithful. Military feasibility aside, this all is a lot easier if tsar's take on Orthodoxy itself is more consistent with what the Greeks see as such.
- xornox 7y ago
  All religious differences are that kind of trivial... It is just difficult to see in own case.
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago

thefounder 7y ago

>> Outside of my family, and maybe that was the real motivator, I don't have a single thing in my life that I am that devoted to. I believe it's really more about fear(of death/hell) than devotion. Most religions have pretty effective rituals/routines to keep you in that kid of state. Once hooked-in it's hard to get out.

kleiba 7y ago
That sounds like an over-generalization to me, though.
- thefounder 7y ago
  Religions are pretty similar. At least the most popular ones.
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
They fled religious persecution. They and the people they associated with were treated like crap by the Tsars and then the Bolsheviks showed up and cranked it to 11. I think that fear of persecution was the real motivator that kept them from going back. I think it's easy to see where the expectation that "If we show back up after years they will instantly take our kids and throw us in jail" comes from.
- lb1lf 7y ago
  -Taking the opportunity to suggest that anyone remotely interested in the old believers - or Dukhabors - go find a copy of Philip Marsden’s eminent exploration of the south Caucasus Dukhabor heartlands in his book ‘The Spirit-Wrestlers’. Part travelogue, part history, part religious - it is one of the most beautiful books I’ve ever read.
war1025 7y ago
> I believe it's really more about fear(of death/hell) than devotion. I disagree. Religion isn't about being afraid, it's about learning to cope. Rituals are important because rituals are rote. You can fall back on them when life is spiraling out of control and find a foothold. I think one of the big problems that modern Christianity faces (since that is the tradition I am part of) is that it has shifted to focus too much on the feminine side of things. There is a reason churches are predominately filled with women. The things the church focuses on appeal to women. The church and religion have a place for men too, but broadly what men need from religion is not what is being delivered. One of my favorite hymn lines is "Learn from Jesus Christ to die". To me, that is what the church offers that appeals most directly to me. How to face mortality, failure, and uncertainty. Several years ago when my father was dying of cancer, it's something I leaned on heavily. When you are too devastated to think clearly, you fall back on the rituals that you can perform without thinking and take solace from the wisdom within them.
- thefounder 7y ago
  >> I disagree. Religion isn't about being afraid, it's about learning to cope. It's no wonder that we become religious when we are most vulnerable. Giving up control gives us comfort. Religions have a ready answer for everything but don't be mistaken, they always double down on fear because fear sells well. "All" the religions threaten with hell in this life and the afterlife if you dare to dissaffiliate. Not to mention that deep down you know that without religion you are doomed to face a harsh reality. I used to believe that religions serve a therapeutic need but unfortunately they've been twiested in so many ways , they try to be so many things that I can't see them more than some tales of wisdom like the Greek mythology. I belive it's a red and blue pill choice. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_pill_and_blue_pill https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_pill_and_blue_pill

chasingthewind 7y ago

One of my key takeaways from this story was just how "minor" the schism that produced this appears to me. I am a Christian and take doctrine very seriously but I find the issues that the Old Believers [0] were concerned about utterly baffling. In the linked article, the table of the "main" differences are shockingly trivial from my perspective and include: 1) How "Jesus" is spelled 2) How to hold your fingers when making the sign of the cross 3) Procession direction (CW vs CCW) 4) etc. That either side was willing to kill or die over these things is something I simply can't understand. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers

deepsun 7y ago
Well, I think those are just markers. I think the real issue began with mass murdering of Old Believers during Nikon reforms, which were mainly about power (to separate from Constantinople).
- int_19h 7y ago
  By the time Nikon reforms happen, the Russian Orthodox Church already had its own independent patriarch. And in fact, the reforms were about making things more like what the Greek church was doing at the time. Russian traditions, meanwhile, were based on old Greek ones, and basically better conserved. It went above and beyond matters of dogma and ritual, even down to stuff like clothing and hairstyles. Tsar Aleksei was also a Grecophile, and to him this was less abstract than just church issues - he was seriously eyeing Constantinople as a potential "Orthodox Reconquista", with himself as the new Constantine -the emperor of the Orthodox faithful. Military feasibility aside, this all is a lot easier if tsar's take on Orthodoxy itself is more consistent with what the Greeks see as such.
xornox 7y ago
All religious differences are that kind of trivial... It is just difficult to see in own case.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago