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For 40 Years, This Russian Family Was Cut Off from All Human Contact (2013)
- Loughla 7y agoI'm definitely not that person, but that level of dedication to religion is absolutely amazing to me. Outside of my family, and maybe that was the real motivator, I don't have a single thing in my life that I am that devoted to. Humans are marvelous, fascinating creatures.
- thefounder 7y ago>> Outside of my family, and maybe that was the real motivator, I don't have a single thing in my life that I am that devoted to. I believe it's really more about fear(of death/hell) than devotion. Most religions have pretty effective rituals/routines to keep you in that kid of state. Once hooked-in it's hard to get out.
- kleiba 7y agoThat sounds like an over-generalization to me, though.
- thefounder 7y agoReligions are pretty similar. At least the most popular ones.
- dsfyu404ed 7y agoThey fled religious persecution. They and the people they associated with were treated like crap by the Tsars and then the Bolsheviks showed up and cranked it to 11. I think that fear of persecution was the real motivator that kept them from going back. I think it's easy to see where the expectation that "If we show back up after years they will instantly take our kids and throw us in jail" comes from.
- lb1lf 7y ago-Taking the opportunity to suggest that anyone remotely interested in the old believers - or Dukhabors - go find a copy of Philip Marsden’s eminent exploration of the south Caucasus Dukhabor heartlands in his book ‘The Spirit-Wrestlers’. Part travelogue, part history, part religious - it is one of the most beautiful books I’ve ever read.
- war1025 7y ago> I believe it's really more about fear(of death/hell) than devotion. I disagree. Religion isn't about being afraid, it's about learning to cope. Rituals are important because rituals are rote. You can fall back on them when life is spiraling out of control and find a foothold. I think one of the big problems that modern Christianity faces (since that is the tradition I am part of) is that it has shifted to focus too much on the feminine side of things. There is a reason churches are predominately filled with women. The things the church focuses on appeal to women. The church and religion have a place for men too, but broadly what men need from religion is not what is being delivered. One of my favorite hymn lines is "Learn from Jesus Christ to die". To me, that is what the church offers that appeals most directly to me. How to face mortality, failure, and uncertainty. Several years ago when my father was dying of cancer, it's something I leaned on heavily. When you are too devastated to think clearly, you fall back on the rituals that you can perform without thinking and take solace from the wisdom within them.
- thefounder 7y ago>> I disagree. Religion isn't about being afraid, it's about learning to cope. It's no wonder that we become religious when we are most vulnerable. Giving up control gives us comfort. Religions have a ready answer for everything but don't be mistaken, they always double down on fear because fear sells well. "All" the religions threaten with hell in this life and the afterlife if you dare to dissaffiliate. Not to mention that deep down you know that without religion you are doomed to face a harsh reality. I used to believe that religions serve a therapeutic need but unfortunately they've been twiested in so many ways , they try to be so many things that I can't see them more than some tales of wisdom like the Greek mythology. I belive it's a red and blue pill choice. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_pill_and_blue_pill https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_pill_and_blue_pill
- chasingthewind 7y agoOne of my key takeaways from this story was just how "minor" the schism that produced this appears to me. I am a Christian and take doctrine very seriously but I find the issues that the Old Believers [0] were concerned about utterly baffling. In the linked article, the table of the "main" differences are shockingly trivial from my perspective and include: 1) How "Jesus" is spelled 2) How to hold your fingers when making the sign of the cross 3) Procession direction (CW vs CCW) 4) etc. That either side was willing to kill or die over these things is something I simply can't understand. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers
- deepsun 7y agoWell, I think those are just markers. I think the real issue began with mass murdering of Old Believers during Nikon reforms, which were mainly about power (to separate from Constantinople).
- int_19h 7y agoBy the time Nikon reforms happen, the Russian Orthodox Church already had its own independent patriarch. And in fact, the reforms were about making things more like what the Greek church was doing at the time. Russian traditions, meanwhile, were based on old Greek ones, and basically better conserved. It went above and beyond matters of dogma and ritual, even down to stuff like clothing and hairstyles. Tsar Aleksei was also a Grecophile, and to him this was less abstract than just church issues - he was seriously eyeing Constantinople as a potential "Orthodox Reconquista", with himself as the new Constantine -the emperor of the Orthodox faithful. Military feasibility aside, this all is a lot easier if tsar's take on Orthodoxy itself is more consistent with what the Greeks see as such.
- xornox 7y agoAll religious differences are that kind of trivial... It is just difficult to see in own case.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
- blakesterz 7y agoReally interesting story, it's from 2013, someone might want to add that to the title here.
- kyuudou 7y agoYep, I saw the headline and thought it must be that one story I read about back in 2013. It's still a captivating read, however. The stories about the Japanese soldiers marooned on Pacific islands for decades still thinking they were at war with the Allieds are right up there with this one.
- Loughla 7y agoIt's the human endurance piece of these stories that is just fascinating for me. There are times in my very cushy life that I worry about how hard I have it, and don't believe that I can go on. Then this comes along. Humans really, genuinely are remarkable creatures.
- forinti 7y agoThe Altai region is beautiful, I hope to visit one day. This bloke hiked up to Agafia's and filmed it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w_NOkOLUQQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w_NOkOLUQQ
- kotrunga 7y agoThank you for sharing! Glad there are English subtitles.
- fit2rule 7y agoThat was a very fascinating video to watch - thanks for that. Only thing is it delivered a pretty gnarly case of motion sickness after a few minutes .. What was really interesting was the observation, towards the end, that once he'd hiked for 4 days and then arrived at Agafia's place and been there for a day, he felt like he'd arrived in civilisation! One wonders what the plan for the area is, once Agafia leaves this mortal coil. She's not alone at the moment - it seems she gets regular visitors - but would this be enough of a settlement to form the basis for a new township to be founded? I confess, the idea of moving to that valley is very attractive these days, if but for the harsh environment I clearly know nothing about ..
- kotrunga 7y agoWow... this was an incredible read, thank you for sharing. I can't imagine what it would be like to grow up in that environment. Humans are amazing... one of my favorite lines from the article: The family’s principal entertainment, the Russian journalist Vasily Peskov noted, “was for everyone to recount their dreams.”
- papeda 7y agoThis is doubly strange because “recounting dreams” is, in modern society, a pretty surefire way to bore other people. But it may be that when you live this kind of pre-modern life you don’t have all the random coins of so much life, media, and other humans around you, so the most reliable source of surprising material is dreams.
- kick 7y agoMost people are bad at recalling dreams, which doesn't help. It's not a bad experience, if you're interacting with people who are good at it.
- pbhjpbhj 7y agoYou mean a way to bore strangers? Because our family share funny, interesting, or strange dreams and I don't find it any less boring than hearing about other aspects of people's day (and sometimes far more engaging).
- caymanjim 7y agoMost people are bad at telling stories in general, both recounting events in a captivating way and making up tales to entertain. Like anything, you get better at it with practice. All cultures have a history of sitting around the campfire and listening to the elders spin yarns. What else would you do at night? Your average caveman was probably a more engaging speaker than most people today.
- Jenz 7y agoMy favorite, by far: > [...] old Karp was usually delighted by the latest innovations that the scientists brought up from their camp, and though he steadfastly refused to believe that man had set foot on the moon, he adapted swiftly to the idea of satellites. The Lykovs had noticed them as early as the 1950s, when “the stars began to go quickly across the sky,” and Karp himself conceived a theory to explain this: “People have thought something up and are sending out fires that are very like stars.” Especially the last part: “People have thought something up and are sending out fires that are very like stars.”
- cmpb 7y ago>Lacking guns and even bows, they could hunt only by digging traps or pursuing prey across the mountains until the animals collapsed from exhaustion. This reminds me of a show I watched on the Science channel when I was young about how humans have evolved. They showed various African civilizations and detailed how they hunt in parties by simply keeping pace with the animal until the animal just collapses. It goes on to say that that is one characteristic of human evolution that has made us drastically more successful at surviving than other species
- illuminated 7y agoAnd that characteristic is the ability to sweat. That's what made the human species "stand out from the crowd" and be able to outrun the prey.
- frosted-flakes 7y agoIs that also why humans aren't furry?
- cephaslr 7y agoCorrect, its a big benefit over the furry prey. Especially when chasing the animal in the hottest part of the day for hours, pre-modern people had quite a different life.
- fallat 7y ago> pre-modern people had quite a different life You know I've thought about this, and if you look at it a certain way, I think you can say life is no different. We still wake up as a group. We still "hunt" except the payoff is money convertible to food. We still eat together. We still sleep together (just across from one another in houses). It's neat to think about.
- kazen44 7y agoAlso, the massive impact of having a complex enough brain to form complex and intricate social structures made it possible for humans to dominate the food chain.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- pulse7 7y agoPrevious discussions in 2013: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5134023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5134023
- diminish 7y agoand even more discussions - it's one of the beloved recurring HN topics. https://hn.algolia.com/?query=For%2040%20Years%2C%20This%20Russian%20Family%20Was%20Cut%20Off%20from%20All%20Human%20Contact&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=story&storyText=false&prefix&page=0 https://hn.algolia.com/?query=For%2040%20Years%2C%20This%20R...
- dang 7y ago(Quick tip: links like that can become more useful with "comments>0":) https://hn.algolia.com/?query=comments%3E0%20For%2040%20Years%2C%20This%20Russian%20Family%20Was%20Cut%20Off%20from%20All%20Human%20Contact&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=story&storyText=false&prefix&page=0&storyText=none https://hn.algolia.com/?query=comments%3E0%20For%2040%20Year...
- diminish 7y agothanks @dang would never discover it "comments > 0"
- mothsonasloth 7y agoHere's a Vice documentary from 2014 about Agafia : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt2AYafET68 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt2AYafET68
- x3haloed 7y agoI feel a profound sadness watching this. Not because of the difficulty of her life. She prefers it her way. But because she is good. And there is so much bad in the world outside. She deserves all the kindness. Edit: We all do, actually. Kindness.
- fit2rule 7y agoI've followed Agafia's story for a few years, and I have a similar conclusion to yours - she demonstrates the core value of human nature, that it really can survive on a simplicity of needs. I was struck by the realisations of many that visited her, that she was a civilising force in the rugged landscape in which she lived. This seems to be an irrefutable aspect of human nature, given the right ingredients for its exposition. Just the simple act of cutting grass for her goats reveals human kindness at its core. I also think its pretty neat that she encourages visitors. Altruistic, as in - she wants to share the beauty of the world she's made for herself - or is there some selfish desire for human interaction, unfulfilled, which motivates this act? Either way, she's a beautiful human being.
- dirktheman 7y agoSurviving in the wilderness for prolonged time is really, really hard. Even more so in a cold place like Siberia. Shows like Bear Grills are fun entertainment, but have little to do with actual survival. The show 'Alone' paints a more realistic picture: most contestants are airlifted because of medical reasons, and the winners end up emanciated in less than 3 months. And bear in mind that these are trained survivalists. EDIT Also reminds me of the story of Hiroo Onoda, a Japanese soldier that hid in the Phillipine jungle for 30 years after WWII, not knowing Japan had surrendered. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroo_Onoda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroo_Onoda
- marcoseliziario 7y agoA big part of that is because we evolved to be social animals. A single man alone in the Amazonian jungle would have a hard time surviving for an extended amount of time. A tribe, though, would have better prospects. If you are alone in the wilderness, you're presented all the time with insurmountable trade-offs: Build shelter and you won't be procuring food, prioritize food and then you won't have a shelter to protect yourself. Working in a team means bigger projects can be tackled, that different needed things can be done in the same time. And this is one of most important things for the evolution of humans, not only the intelligence, or the ability to make and use tools, but also the ability to live in society, to communicate and build a culture. The homo sapiens is indeed a remarkable species. But what really make us what we are is not the individual per-se, but our society. Homo is great, for sure, but what is really impressive is not the individual Homo, but humanity.
- hbvvvvgff 7y agoThe only way to actually survive is to hunt big game. Fish is too lean. Vegetables have no calories. Small rodents have very few calories. Fatty meat is a necessity. In alone, they are forced to transport heavy camera equipment. They start out right before winter. The local laws prevent them from actually hunting. The show is a joke. There is no surviving actually done. Just enduring starvation. The optimal way to win is to select fatty food as many of your 10 items as possible, make a shelter, and expend as few calories as possible. But that isn't entertaining to watch, so they won't select you to be on the show.
- nagyf 7y agoFascinating story, it is unbelievable what humans can survive
- ChrisArchitect 7y agomore previous discussion highlights: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12374973 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12374973
- x3haloed 7y agoThis is the most interesting story I have read in a long time. Thank you for sharing.
- downwithdisease 7y agoThat website is pretty brutal for reading, with the ads rotating and their different heights shifting the content up and down constantly.
- AA-BA-94-2A-56 7y agoI was using ublock origin and it was fine
- megiddo 7y agoThe website crashed. Interesting!
- 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y ago> The rest of the family were saved by what they regarded as a miracle: a single grain of rye sprouted in their pea patch. The Lykovs put up a fence around the shoot and guarded it zealously night and day to keep off mice and squirrels. At harvest time, the solitary spike yielded 18 grains, and from this they painstakingly rebuilt their rye crop Think of how long they watched this little shoot of rye grow... that must have been a really scary period.
- seemslegit 7y ago> and though he steadfastly refused to believe that man had set foot on the moon Prescient for somebody who doesn't even know what a soundstage is.
- grecy 7y agoI've always enjoyed this article - I lived in the Yukon for 4 years and we would go on ~10 day moose hunting trips in the fall where we wouldn't see a person, or even signs of people (roads, power lines, fire pits) the whole time. It would be below freezing overnight, and sometimes chunks of ice would come down the river. We always wondered if we could survive a winter with just what we had. Anyway, but biggest questions from this article are how did they light fire, and how did they boil water? I assume steel pots, but what would they have done once those were damaged?
- firethief 7y agoIDK about these folks, but my tribe in SE Alaska would put water in baskets woven from bark, and boil it by putting in hot rocks.
- mod 7y agoI doubt they boiled water just to drink it. As for fire, I would assume they never let it go out, or else they learned friction fire.
- 205guy 7y agoI think the article mentioned using birch bark containers when their pots wore through. To heat water in them, they probably heated rocks in the fire and dropped them into the bark bowls full of water. I'm not sure how they made fire, but it was probably tedious so maybe they kept it going constantly--no shortage of wood.
- narrator 7y agoThings started to get a lot harder when their metal items started to fall apart. Metal smelting and forging are always the part of those primitive technology youtube channels where things get really complicated.
- raldu 7y ago> ... , and though he steadfastly refused to believe that man had set foot on the moon, he adapted swiftly to the idea of satellites. The Lykovs had noticed them as early as the 1950s, when “the stars began to go quickly across the sky,” and Karp himself conceived a theory to explain this: “People have thought something up and are sending out fires that are very like stars.”
- 205guy 7y agoThe article mentions how the children died of kidney failure. One thing I remember reading was that their bodies had adapted to the lack of salt, so it was the salted food they ate after contact that killed them.
- doitLP 7y agoI had the same thought. Dying within days of each other post-contact from kidney failure after a lifetime in the wilderness is a little coincidental.