6 ms·

They’re in the same bed as China. I don’t trust them for anything now, this to me is just a PR management exercise. They’re still going to give away your data

izacus 6y ago
China, the best bogeyman to discredit anyone you don't like. Is that the 2020s version of a "commie"?
- tw04 6y ago
  Are you suggesting that China isn't responsible for repeated, massive state-sponsored hacks? That they aren't actively committing industrial espionage primarily through said state-sponsored hacking? If you're not saying that, then why are you pretending the fact that Zoom is sending keys THROUGH CHINA and developing the product IN CHINA is not a big deal?
  - x0x0 6y ago
    It's the industrial espionage angle that is probably more concerning. The Chinese government certainly can get attendee lists and keys for Zoom meetings; want to listen to meetings the cxx folks are in? Or worse, steal prospects for domestic companies? I'd be pretty enthused about getting the list of people my competitors are doing sales calls with.
  - izacus 6y ago
    > Are you suggesting that China isn't responsible for repeated, massive state-sponsored hacks? That they aren't actively committing industrial espionage primarily through said state-sponsored hacking? Nope, not at all. They're guilty of all of it and probably more. > If you're not saying that, then why are you pretending the fact that Zoom is sending keys THROUGH CHINA and developing the product IN CHINA is not a big deal? Because for me, as an European, it doesn't really make much difference does it? Both countries are currently led by lying dishonest governments which are spying on anything and everything that moves. If anything, it disappoints me that Americans are wasting so much time complaining about China while the worst parts of the Chinese regime are growing and thriving on their own backyard and affecting their own wellbeing.
    - remarkEon 6y ago
      Why do you think it doesn't make a difference? At a minimum, one country shares a mutual defense pact with most of Europe. The other doesn't (to say the least).
      - 1MoreThing 6y ago
        The mutual defense pact our president has repeatedly tried to weaken and or remove the US from? Yeah, that's going swimmingly.
      - izacus 6y ago
        After agressive sanctions from US government for EU, the targeted EU travel ban and current presidents rhetoric, I have zero trust in any kind of mutual defense or military assistance coming from US in the time of crisis. Remember, people of Italy are currently being helped by Chinese doctors while US president ignores and belittles the problem. The talks between France and Germany about creating an independent defense pact also reflect the complete lack of trust into what NATO has become. So much was lost in so few years. And that also ignores all the nasty surveillance stuff they've been doing these last few years - where the Five Eyes pact was used to surveil our own citizens by our own government by piping data through US. If there's one thing I'm sure of is that China won't share their spying data with my own government ;P
        s_y_n_t_a_x 6y ago
        > If there's one thing I'm sure of is that China won't share their spying data with my own government. They'll just share it with their allies; Chinese-state hackers, Russia, Iran, and North Korea so you'll have blackhats after you instead of your government. Out of the frying pan into the fire.
        remarkEon 6y ago
        I think I'd be the first to admit that NATO has probably outlived it's useful life as a Cold War construction, but there's still a lot of history there. None of that exists with China, and China seems to be using the crisis in Europe as a means to exert its influence abroad (hello 5G rollout). Does Europe really want to trade that history for a new relationship with a country like China where the structure of that relationship is yet unknown? Perhaps it's better to actually ask some hard hitting questions about fairness between US-EU trade relations (and admittedly since I am an American, it seems a bit unfair that the EU gets to essentially freeload on US defense in the western hemisphere and we get some stiff tariffs in return). So it seems perfectly reasonable, and probably a good thing, that France and Germany are creating an independent defense pact. >If there's one thing I'm sure of is that China won't share their spying data with my own government ;P And? Consider for a moment that sharing of this data between defense partners actually provides a useful signal of mutual capabilities and for what's being collected.
- _visgean 6y ago
  Well the Chinese government are commies so it is probably the same thing.
- s_y_n_t_a_x 6y ago
  There's many reasons not to trust the CPC. (ip theft, surveillance, etc.) There's also many humanitarian concerns as well: https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/10/asia/xinjiang-china-reeducation-camps-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/10/asia/xinjiang-china-reeducati... https://nypost.com/2019/06/01/chinese-dissidents-are-being-executed-for-their-organs-former-hospital-worker-says/ https://nypost.com/2019/06/01/chinese-dissidents-are-being-e... https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/09/04/757089868/fentanyl-as-a-dark-web-profit-center-from-chinese-labs-to-u-s-streets https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/09/04/7570898...
  - zwaps 6y ago
    Interesting that all these comments are being downvoted, even though they all agree with each other?
  - izacus 6y ago
    > There's many reasons not to trust the CPC. (ip theft, surveillance, etc.) That's pretty much the summary of US attacks on our EU government as well (remember the backdoor direct attack on Belgacom?), soo... why does it make a difference? If anything, routing things through China denies our data to NSA and makes it less concentrated and useful. Similarly how spreading data over multiple cloud providers gives less power to Google et. al.
    - s_y_n_t_a_x 6y ago
      You ignored the humanitarian issues. Also, please give me examples of a US or European country stealing IP, because that's the main threat w/ Zoom (spying on businesses & stealing tech) Yes, most countries spy, China goes much much further and has no accountability because it's an authoritarian regime, not a democracy. You can talk shit about Trump all you want, but try to call Xi Jinping a cartoon bear. Ask Hong Kong, they'd love to have the freedoms that they once had as UK citizens.
      - dang 6y ago
        I just told you a few days ago that if you keep taking HN threads further into political, nationalistic, or ideological flamewar, we are going to have to ban you. You're still doing it. This sort of tedious boilerplate gets certain juices flowing but it has nothing at all to do with intellectual curiosity, the purpose of this site. In fact, it drowns it out. Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and take the spirit of this site more to heart? We want curious conversation here, not demon-fighting.
- eanzenberg 6y ago
  Communism is still bad, my friend. China unleashing this pandemic is bad, too.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- dang 6y ago
  The GP comment was lazy and provocative, but please don't take HN threads further into nationalistic flamewar. These are all the same, therefore tedious, therefore off topic here. Also, they get nasty, which breaks the container. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
fma 6y ago
So...use a US based video conferencing tool? I'm sure there are no backdoors in those!
- teknologist 6y ago
  Whataboutism! Lovely
dang 6y ago
Would you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN? We're hoping for a better quality of discussion than this, and (especially) than what it leads to. Case in point: see below. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- s_y_n_t_a_x 6y ago
  I believe the GP was referencing Zoom's encryption going through China's servers, which was on HN's recently: https://citizenlab.ca/2020/04/move-fast-roll-your-own-crypto-a-quick-look-at-the-confidentiality-of-zoom-meetings/ https://citizenlab.ca/2020/04/move-fast-roll-your-own-crypto... There are valid criticism to be discussed about China's actions and how much Zoom should be trusted given its close relation. There's been many criticism of the US government here and I never see anything flagged or removed, I would consider that nationalistic and provocative under the same guidelines. I just don't see why the China discussions are removed.
  - dang 6y ago
    > There are valid criticism to be discussed about China's actions and how much Zoom should be trusted given its close relation Yes, and that's why comments about it should be thoughtful and substantive—not drive-by flamebait leading to useless flamewars about NATO and Winnie the Pooh. > There's been many criticism of the US government here and I never see anything flagged or removed That happens often. If you never see it, that's because of a cognitive bias: we notice and weight more strongly—that is, we see—what we dislike. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20notice%20dislike&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que.... People on the opposite side of this question have exactly the opposite complaint.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]

izacus 6y ago

China, the best bogeyman to discredit anyone you don't like. Is that the 2020s version of a "commie"?

tw04 6y ago
Are you suggesting that China isn't responsible for repeated, massive state-sponsored hacks? That they aren't actively committing industrial espionage primarily through said state-sponsored hacking? If you're not saying that, then why are you pretending the fact that Zoom is sending keys THROUGH CHINA and developing the product IN CHINA is not a big deal?
- x0x0 6y ago
  It's the industrial espionage angle that is probably more concerning. The Chinese government certainly can get attendee lists and keys for Zoom meetings; want to listen to meetings the cxx folks are in? Or worse, steal prospects for domestic companies? I'd be pretty enthused about getting the list of people my competitors are doing sales calls with.
- izacus 6y ago
  > Are you suggesting that China isn't responsible for repeated, massive state-sponsored hacks? That they aren't actively committing industrial espionage primarily through said state-sponsored hacking? Nope, not at all. They're guilty of all of it and probably more. > If you're not saying that, then why are you pretending the fact that Zoom is sending keys THROUGH CHINA and developing the product IN CHINA is not a big deal? Because for me, as an European, it doesn't really make much difference does it? Both countries are currently led by lying dishonest governments which are spying on anything and everything that moves. If anything, it disappoints me that Americans are wasting so much time complaining about China while the worst parts of the Chinese regime are growing and thriving on their own backyard and affecting their own wellbeing.
  - remarkEon 6y ago
    Why do you think it doesn't make a difference? At a minimum, one country shares a mutual defense pact with most of Europe. The other doesn't (to say the least).
    - 1MoreThing 6y ago
      The mutual defense pact our president has repeatedly tried to weaken and or remove the US from? Yeah, that's going swimmingly.
    - izacus 6y ago
      After agressive sanctions from US government for EU, the targeted EU travel ban and current presidents rhetoric, I have zero trust in any kind of mutual defense or military assistance coming from US in the time of crisis. Remember, people of Italy are currently being helped by Chinese doctors while US president ignores and belittles the problem. The talks between France and Germany about creating an independent defense pact also reflect the complete lack of trust into what NATO has become. So much was lost in so few years. And that also ignores all the nasty surveillance stuff they've been doing these last few years - where the Five Eyes pact was used to surveil our own citizens by our own government by piping data through US. If there's one thing I'm sure of is that China won't share their spying data with my own government ;P
      - s_y_n_t_a_x 6y ago
        > If there's one thing I'm sure of is that China won't share their spying data with my own government. They'll just share it with their allies; Chinese-state hackers, Russia, Iran, and North Korea so you'll have blackhats after you instead of your government. Out of the frying pan into the fire.
      - remarkEon 6y ago
        I think I'd be the first to admit that NATO has probably outlived it's useful life as a Cold War construction, but there's still a lot of history there. None of that exists with China, and China seems to be using the crisis in Europe as a means to exert its influence abroad (hello 5G rollout). Does Europe really want to trade that history for a new relationship with a country like China where the structure of that relationship is yet unknown? Perhaps it's better to actually ask some hard hitting questions about fairness between US-EU trade relations (and admittedly since I am an American, it seems a bit unfair that the EU gets to essentially freeload on US defense in the western hemisphere and we get some stiff tariffs in return). So it seems perfectly reasonable, and probably a good thing, that France and Germany are creating an independent defense pact. >If there's one thing I'm sure of is that China won't share their spying data with my own government ;P And? Consider for a moment that sharing of this data between defense partners actually provides a useful signal of mutual capabilities and for what's being collected.
_visgean 6y ago
Well the Chinese government are commies so it is probably the same thing.
s_y_n_t_a_x 6y ago
There's many reasons not to trust the CPC. (ip theft, surveillance, etc.) There's also many humanitarian concerns as well: https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/10/asia/xinjiang-china-reeducation-camps-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/10/asia/xinjiang-china-reeducati... https://nypost.com/2019/06/01/chinese-dissidents-are-being-executed-for-their-organs-former-hospital-worker-says/ https://nypost.com/2019/06/01/chinese-dissidents-are-being-e... https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/09/04/757089868/fentanyl-as-a-dark-web-profit-center-from-chinese-labs-to-u-s-streets https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/09/04/7570898...
- zwaps 6y ago
  Interesting that all these comments are being downvoted, even though they all agree with each other?
- izacus 6y ago
  > There's many reasons not to trust the CPC. (ip theft, surveillance, etc.) That's pretty much the summary of US attacks on our EU government as well (remember the backdoor direct attack on Belgacom?), soo... why does it make a difference? If anything, routing things through China denies our data to NSA and makes it less concentrated and useful. Similarly how spreading data over multiple cloud providers gives less power to Google et. al.
  - s_y_n_t_a_x 6y ago
    You ignored the humanitarian issues. Also, please give me examples of a US or European country stealing IP, because that's the main threat w/ Zoom (spying on businesses & stealing tech) Yes, most countries spy, China goes much much further and has no accountability because it's an authoritarian regime, not a democracy. You can talk shit about Trump all you want, but try to call Xi Jinping a cartoon bear. Ask Hong Kong, they'd love to have the freedoms that they once had as UK citizens.
    - dang 6y ago
      I just told you a few days ago that if you keep taking HN threads further into political, nationalistic, or ideological flamewar, we are going to have to ban you. You're still doing it. This sort of tedious boilerplate gets certain juices flowing but it has nothing at all to do with intellectual curiosity, the purpose of this site. In fact, it drowns it out. Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and take the spirit of this site more to heart? We want curious conversation here, not demon-fighting.
eanzenberg 6y ago
Communism is still bad, my friend. China unleashing this pandemic is bad, too.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
dang 6y ago
The GP comment was lazy and provocative, but please don't take HN threads further into nationalistic flamewar. These are all the same, therefore tedious, therefore off topic here. Also, they get nasty, which breaks the container. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

fma 6y ago

So...use a US based video conferencing tool? I'm sure there are no backdoors in those!

teknologist 6y ago
Whataboutism! Lovely

dang 6y ago

Would you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN? We're hoping for a better quality of discussion than this, and (especially) than what it leads to. Case in point: see below. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

s_y_n_t_a_x 6y ago
I believe the GP was referencing Zoom's encryption going through China's servers, which was on HN's recently: https://citizenlab.ca/2020/04/move-fast-roll-your-own-crypto-a-quick-look-at-the-confidentiality-of-zoom-meetings/ https://citizenlab.ca/2020/04/move-fast-roll-your-own-crypto... There are valid criticism to be discussed about China's actions and how much Zoom should be trusted given its close relation. There's been many criticism of the US government here and I never see anything flagged or removed, I would consider that nationalistic and provocative under the same guidelines. I just don't see why the China discussions are removed.
- dang 6y ago
  > There are valid criticism to be discussed about China's actions and how much Zoom should be trusted given its close relation Yes, and that's why comments about it should be thoughtful and substantive—not drive-by flamebait leading to useless flamewars about NATO and Winnie the Pooh. > There's been many criticism of the US government here and I never see anything flagged or removed That happens often. If you never see it, that's because of a cognitive bias: we notice and weight more strongly—that is, we see—what we dislike. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20notice%20dislike&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que.... People on the opposite side of this question have exactly the opposite complaint.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]