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How does fake treatment work in a clinical therapy test setting? I'd think I'd either figure out that the person giving me therapy was talking nonsense pretty

How does fake treatment work in a clinical therapy test setting? I'd think I'd either figure out that the person giving me therapy was talking nonsense pretty quickly, or their 'placebo' therapy is indistinguishable from actual therapy, in which case am I still a control?

jefftk 7y ago
This is magnetic stimulation. You could have a control group where you don't turn on the magnet.
- msandford 7y ago
  Yeah but there was an article posted a few days ago about how Reiki can't possibly work but it still does. IMO the only way to blind this is to put people in an automated machine that either turns the magnet on or it doesn't (and it makes some noises either way). You can't have highly trained professionals in the loop making people feel valuable by giving them all this attention, as that could be a confounding effect in both the alleged-treatment and the alleged-placebo. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22764824 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22764824
  - disgruntledphd2 7y ago
    That is captured in the double-blind design. Note that with Reiki, it's a little more complicated to properly blind (this is an issue for pretty much every physical therapy, and surgery).
  - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
    > IMO the only way to blind this is to put people in an automated machine that either turns the magnet on or it doesn't (and it makes some noises either way). You can't have highly trained professionals in the loop making people feel valuable by giving them all this attention, as that could be a confounding effect in both the alleged-treatment and the alleged-placebo. It's fine as long as both the experimental group and the control group get the same amount of attention, right? If both groups show the same amount of improvement, that means it was caused entirely by the attention, not by the magnetic treatment.
    - jefftk 7y ago
      This probably only works if the professionals are blinded to whether the machine is enabled
      - apocolyps6 7y ago
        That's what the "double" in double-blind means
        jefftk 7y ago
        msandford is saying that you can only run an experiment like this and get good results if the treatment is administered entirely by a machine. PhasmaFelis is saying that as long as both groups get similar amounts of professional attention then you can still get good results. I'm saying that to make sure you get equal levels of professional attention you need to blind the professionals to whether the machine is enabled. (I agree that this is what the "double" in "double blind" means, but that's not what we were talking about.)
        andrekorol 7y ago
        In that case, let's just call it triple-blind... /s
    - Sharlin 7y ago
      @jefft that's what "double-blind" means.
starpilot 7y ago
You do everything the same except don't turn on the machine. This isn't talk therapy, they're just sitting there in a chair with the device held to their heads.
- WalterSear 7y ago
  TMS is really loud, and causes a tapping sensation, so the are likely using a fake machine.

jefftk 7y ago

This is magnetic stimulation. You could have a control group where you don't turn on the magnet.

msandford 7y ago
Yeah but there was an article posted a few days ago about how Reiki can't possibly work but it still does. IMO the only way to blind this is to put people in an automated machine that either turns the magnet on or it doesn't (and it makes some noises either way). You can't have highly trained professionals in the loop making people feel valuable by giving them all this attention, as that could be a confounding effect in both the alleged-treatment and the alleged-placebo. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22764824 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22764824
- disgruntledphd2 7y ago
  That is captured in the double-blind design. Note that with Reiki, it's a little more complicated to properly blind (this is an issue for pretty much every physical therapy, and surgery).
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  > IMO the only way to blind this is to put people in an automated machine that either turns the magnet on or it doesn't (and it makes some noises either way). You can't have highly trained professionals in the loop making people feel valuable by giving them all this attention, as that could be a confounding effect in both the alleged-treatment and the alleged-placebo. It's fine as long as both the experimental group and the control group get the same amount of attention, right? If both groups show the same amount of improvement, that means it was caused entirely by the attention, not by the magnetic treatment.
  - jefftk 7y ago
    This probably only works if the professionals are blinded to whether the machine is enabled
    - apocolyps6 7y ago
      That's what the "double" in double-blind means
      - jefftk 7y ago
        msandford is saying that you can only run an experiment like this and get good results if the treatment is administered entirely by a machine. PhasmaFelis is saying that as long as both groups get similar amounts of professional attention then you can still get good results. I'm saying that to make sure you get equal levels of professional attention you need to blind the professionals to whether the machine is enabled. (I agree that this is what the "double" in "double blind" means, but that's not what we were talking about.)
        andrekorol 7y ago
        In that case, let's just call it triple-blind... /s
  - Sharlin 7y ago
    @jefft that's what "double-blind" means.

starpilot 7y ago

You do everything the same except don't turn on the machine. This isn't talk therapy, they're just sitting there in a chair with the device held to their heads.

WalterSear 7y ago
TMS is really loud, and causes a tapping sensation, so the are likely using a fake machine.