8 ms·

This is psychiatry. Psychiatry certainly respects its sister field but takes an independent look at the brain. We could always go back to the wild wild west wit

This is psychiatry. Psychiatry certainly respects its sister field but takes an independent look at the brain. We could always go back to the wild wild west with no psychologists or psychiatrists. I mean, does depression even exist, or is it a psychiatric scam?

collyw 7y ago
Where exactly is the line between the two drawn. I always got the impression that Psychiatry needed a medical degree while Psychology was similar but without one. I am pretty sure depression exists.
- jonathanlydall 7y ago
  My mother is a psychologist (not in US though). Psychologists treat just by talking through problems while pschiatrists treat with the help of drugs (as well as also talking). While my mother has PhD, psychiatrists require a medical degree.
- bloak 7y ago
  I'm not so sure. It depends what you mean by "depression". If you mean exactly what's written in the DSM then you should be sceptical. See "Crazy like us" by Ethan Watters: a great book, only part of it about depression. Remember that when Freud was active the main psychiatric ailment was "hysteria". Did hysteria exist? Does it still exist? To what extent is mental illness socially determined?
fao_ 7y ago
> I mean, does depression even exist, or is it a psychiatric scam? I don't think anyone who's experienced it would be asking this question.
- lidHanteyk 7y ago
  Hi! Lifelong experiencer of depression and several mental disorders. Am I mentally ill, or is the world really actually a horrible and callous place where most humans spend their time being negligent and abusive towards each other? At very best, psychiatrists might claim to be able to open up a wider perspective, which is why they used to be called "head-shrinkers", for their ability to humble and to remove egoist barriers, but a bit of meditation will do that too. So, is psychiatry's ability to give perspective worth the pathologizing effect that it has on people?
  - S_A_P 7y ago
    I like how you worded that. I definitely have my moments when cynicism takes hold and I lose most desire to do anything creative or productive. I normally power through it and double down on walking and running. It’s not a 100% fix but it certainly prevents the feeling from being my overwhelming mind state. While I guess the definition fits, mental illness seems a hard word for depression. It does seem that the tide is turning and the stigma around mental health has steadily lifted with most people. I have mixed feelings around Psychology and Psychiatry. I still feel like there are too many doctors offering pills to cure your ailments without getting to the root of the problem. But that isn’t every doctor and I have seen things like CBT improve people’s lives. Ultimately I think that some of the “cure” must come from within and you have to want to change. I think a good doctor and therapist will help someone unload and frame things in such a way as to encourage that.
  - friendlybus 7y ago
    Why isn’t it both? There are earthy cultures around the world that don’t have a concept of ownership or the strict boundaries of western life, living in different places and cultures is easier for some and you can easily make the critical case against the western world, ill or not. The trouble with a social intervention like therapy is the fundamental attribution error in sociology. Which character is the problem and which is the solution played out in a battle of the minds in an enclosed space. The government employed brainwashing therapist seeking to downplay any eccentricity that destabilises a social norm, or the poorly functioning client who blames others for their problems. Therapists have a habit of dumping the responsibility for generally unsolved philosophical questions about social interaction onto the client. Where is the line between internal and external social stimuli? Who do you attribute your problems to? What is the value in a diagnosis label? Answer these questions for yourself and you’ll cure many different ailments. Fail to find the answer and remain pathologized? Therapists routinely underserve the amount of education and philosophy required to heal. The diagnostic categories are a descriptive mess that are used as tools, yet people use them as definitions far too often. I recommend anyone interested in therapy and ideas to see Jordan peterson’s YouTube video Self-Deception in Psychopathology (from before his fame) where he gives a quick rundown of a view above the current running mill of therapy. It tackles briefly some philosophical problems with therapy.
- solinent 7y ago
  I've experienced it to the point where I almost died, and I agree, it's a psychiatric scam.
diegoperini 7y ago
My significant other is a psychologist. She describes depression like dark matter from physics. It's observable but we don't know what it is made of.
- fpoling 7y ago
  It is a bad analogy. We do not know even if dark matter exists as it is one of many possible explanations of a particular phenomenon. So the depression is like a galaxy rotation speed anomaly.
ryeights 7y ago
Well, the notion of depression as a chemical imbalance was brought into the fray to sell Zoloft...
q3k 7y ago
> I mean, does depression even exist, or is it a psychiatric scam? Yes. You're being disrespectful to people whose lives are severely affected by depression.
- unethical_ban 7y ago
  I think the hypothetical was posed to highlight the utility of these fields of study, despite their issues with reproducibility and stats.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- flatline 7y ago
  It's a model. There are plenty of other models for the symptoms classified under clinical depression, human suffering is not a new thing that people just started trying to solve in the last century. Depression has some stigma attached to it, and big pharma profits a lot from it. The model and its treatments do help a lot of people, but there are an equal or greater number that they don't help. As a model it's pretty meh in my opinion but it's the best thing that modern science has come up with.
- jshevek 7y ago
  Nobody is questioning or invalidating their experiences. As I understand it, the issue is partly semantic. Is our system of labeling helping or hurting our understanding of reality?
derEitel 7y ago
The concept of a major depressive disorder exists. There are common symptoms and likely causes such as childhood trauma. Can we be certain it is a unanimous mental disorder? No, it might as well be several different disorders we haven't understood yet. But isn't that similar for most mental disorders?
fpoling 7y ago
I was skeptical about depression until I saw it in my son. This is a terrible condition with bad side-effects even in a mild form. And the only effective treatment is time.
- nradov 7y ago
  Some other treatments appear to be effective, at least in reducing symptoms, for some patients some of the time.
- virgil_disgr4ce 7y ago
  > And the only effective treatment is time ...? Depression does not improve on its own, at all. It has to be actively managed.
  - fpoling 7y ago
    That is what was implied. The person needs help until time has chance to work.
  - downerending 7y ago
    Passage of time and change of circumstance can provide some help, as some of us can attest.
- jshevek 7y ago
  "And the only effective treatment is time." I think you mean that time is necessary, not that time is sufficient.
nradov 7y ago
Does diabetes even exist? At some point these labels are more a matter of semantics than clear binary clinical determinations. For example, the current guideline is to diagnose a patient as diabetic if their uncontrolled hemoglobin A1c is over 6.5%. But the reality is that it's a spectrum with no clear dividing lines, significant fluctuations from day to day, individual genetic variations, etc. Likewise depression is just a convenient label for a bundle of loosely correlated symptoms. Some patients are clearly having a rough time and need treatment. Because it's impractical to deal with subtle differences between patients at scale, psychiatrists have defined some subjective criteria to decide who should be treated as depressed. https://www.medscape.com/answers/286759-14692/what-are-the-dsm-5-criteria-for-diagnosis-of-major-depressive-disorder-clinical-depression https://www.medscape.com/answers/286759-14692/what-are-the-d...
- abnry 7y ago
  The issue is that there is a measurement problem with many depression symptoms. You can have multiple people independently measure the blood glucose level of a patient and get the same result. And this result compares with other patients. With depression, you almost always have to rely on self-reporting or subjective evaluation by a health professional. One person saying they are depression might mean a whole lot more than another person saying it. It's not that you can't make measurements that are useful, its just that the error bars are so much larger.
- matheusmoreira 7y ago
  > Does diabetes even exist? Yes, absolutely. > For example, the current guideline is to diagnose a patient as diabetic if their uncontrolled hemoglobin A1c is over 6.5%. Several other objective tests can be used to diagnose diabetes. The disease could present with characteristic symptoms which match diabetes. The presence of comorbidities such as obesity also help with diagnosis. > But the reality is that it's a spectrum with no clear dividing lines, significant fluctuations from day to day, individual genetic variations, etc. This spectrum is called pre-diabetes. At some point, the risk becomes unacceptably high for the patient and treatment is indicated. This point has been determined through research. Yes, blood glucose does vary during the day depending on the person's metabolic state. This variability is well understood. Normal and abnormal is well-defined. Fasting blood glucose > 126 mg/dl is evidence of diabetes mellitus. Blood glucose 2 hours after ingesting 75 g of glucose > 200 mg/dl is evidence of diabetes mellitus.
matheusmoreira 7y ago
Depression exists. It is the most thoroughly researched psychiatric disorder. If left untreated, depression can lead to physical changes in the brain. It has enormous impact on the individual and society. https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/global/global-dalys-contributed-by-mental-and-behavioral-disorders.shtml https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/global/global-dal... https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/disability/us-dalys-contributed-by-mental-and-behavioral-disorders.shtml https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/disability/us-dal... > DALYs represent the total number of years lost to illness, disability, or premature death within a given population. > DALYs are calculated by adding the number of years of life lost to the number of years lived with disability (YLDs) for a certain disease or disorder.
- solinent 7y ago
  What's the mechanism? My point is that depression is such a wide category that even if it exists it's useless. You could say that "being human" is a disease, it always leads to death. I'm not saying "being human" doesn't exist.
  - matheusmoreira 7y ago
    The pathophysiology of depression is not fully understood. It is possible that what we understand as depression today could become several distinct diseases in the future. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181668/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181668/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3984887/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3984887/ In any case, the impact of depression is known and it can't be ignored. Doctors must at least try to help depressed patients. There are models which guide pharmacological and behavorial treatments employed in current practice. They are proven to be superior to placebo.
    - solinent 7y ago
      That's my point. You haven't even come up with a basic taxonomy of depression and you're already applying your theory. In physics this would be blasphemous. > Doctors must at least try to help depressed patients. All the help I've received has been useless or actively harmful. No one even told me to exercise or diet, in fact, some suggested I take it easy, stop blaming myself. That was all wrong. I was to blame. Every morning, by blaming myself, I made better choices w.r.t health. Now I am no longer to blame, I have no depression. I used to be arthritic and asthmatic, now I am biking for hours straight, doing pull-ups every day.
sdegutis 7y ago
Fulton Sheen has spilled a significant amount of ink against psychiatry, and against many forms of psychology, because they all reject the existence of the soul. And if the soul does exist, but we make all sorts of assumptions based on the idea that it doesn't, then all our conclusions will be tainted if not completely wrong. He talked quite a bit on depression, psychosis, neurosis, anxiety, and other mental conditions. Incidentally, the stereotype that religion is only for the ignorant and that talking about it always devolves into an emotional and irrational argument, is only true for certain emasculated forms of Christianity, but not Catholicism, where Fulton Sheen proved that (high) intelligence is in no way contrary to religious belief, but actually religious concepts are better explained by those with higher intelligence. Anecdotally, one of the biggest reasons I bring up religion so much, especially in threads like this, is because Catholicism was the only form of psychology that actually helped me overcome my many great mental disorders, and I am confident that it will be able to help others through their lesser and fewer forms than I had. But because of the extreme prejudice that intellectual people have against religion in general and Catholicism specifically, there has been almost no public progress in this field. "Catholic counselors" have generally in my opinion been non-Catholic in their foundational principles and have in no way been able to help me, for example. And priests, although they should especially be educated about psychology from a Catholic foundation, especially in these days where it's more prevalent than ever (Fulton Sheen expands quit a bit on the reasoning), they have not seemed to recognize the serious need for this yet and have not caught up. So almost all of my improvements have been from independent research on and application of these things. I really wish that the intelligentsia in general and here especially would catch up, especially when I see so many people struggling in many of the same ways I did and have overcome in the past few years. That's why I try so hard on here to convince them it's actually for them. If they only read Thomas Aquinas and Fulton Sheen they might see that it's actually more of an intellectual position than agnosticism or atheism are. But sometimes it takes a person hitting rock bottom to realize that all their enlightened philosophy is useless to help them live a truly happy and fulfilling life. Sometimes only when we have the most pressure do we consider alternatives that may be a bit unpalatable to our preferences.
P_I_Staker 7y ago
Oh, depression definitely exists. It tends to be over-simplified and is too stigmatized, but it most definitely exists. Keep in mind that "depression" is a very general spectrum disorder with many different forms. Saying someone has depression is a bit like saying "they're sick"; but they could have the common cold, flu, COVID-19, ect. It's worth noting that there are people out there with what I'll call "inexplicable depression". In other words, everything could be going right for them. You could look at their life and find no flaws. Loving parents, deep, rich friendships, good profession, success, loving relationship with a partner, and comfortable financial situation. They seem to have it all, but just want to die. More often there's at least some trauma and adverse experiences. On the flip side, you can find people whose lives have been and continue to be just awful; yet they're fine (or at least no depression). It's not always predictable whether someone will have problems, just like how some smokers never get cancer. There's a scale of severity and even some people with it can't relate to everyone who has it. Someone who grew up in squalor and abuse isn't going to relate to a wealthy person with body image issues. I've had some amount of depression myself, but I've still been unable to relate to my friends. For example, one that flunked out of college, because he wouldn't get out of bed. I've felt bad, but never to the point of letting my life completely wither away. I guess the guy just couldn't do it. He was abused growing up, experienced some relationship problems, and starting having severe issues. I have absolutely zero doubt that the person was sick. Healthy people aren't bedridden. Posts like this concern me. You don't have to accept everything psychiatry as a field says. You can be skeptical. However, there's too much backlash to the slightest amount of acceptance and de-stigmatization of depression. Yes, it exists, you really don't want to get it, and it's a serious problem we need to keep addressing.
- viklove 7y ago
  > They seem to have it all, but just want to die. Maybe this just isn't a problem like doctors make it out to be. Maybe life isn't worth living. It seems like if you try to take up this position, you get shouted out of the room because no one wants to accept the fact that life is utterly meaningless and futile for a subset of people, and it's not a condition -- it's just an objective analysis of the situation. Slaving away for 60 years and having to spend the vast majority of your healthy, waking hours making someone else rich isn't rewarding. It's pointless. The good things in life -- family, friends, hobbies -- are sidelined and you're only allowed to focus on them 2/7 days of the week. Yeah, life really doesn't seem like it's worth living.
markroseman 7y ago
Oh please, come on. There's an entire "field of study" that seems designed to prove that through the age-old mechanism of twisting logic into absurd pretzel knots that don't hold up to scrutiny from any but the most casual observer. It's called antipsychiatry. If you want to get a taste of how shallow most of it is, check out https://markroseman.com/antipsychiatry/ https://markroseman.com/antipsychiatry/
hirako2000 7y ago
I beleive it is a scam. Every single person I've met who suffered from "depression" had a troubled past, and often a troubled present. Not saying the symptoms are mild. It's a nasty state to be in. Inability to sleep and concentrate, leading to all sort of physical issues and impossibility to learn and keep a job. All that being said, the causes are rather clear. Hard to fix. All these pshyco active treatments are judge bandades, anything to keep the brain quiet which in my opinion often aggregates the issue. Dependence, side effects... A person is not depressed but doesn't have its full brain capacity. It would be valuable if clinical consultants converted to social workers to help patients address the root causes instead of prescribing medications and whatnot. Thing is, it doesn't sell that well and isn't covered by your insurance. Medics and therapy sessions are.
- pickdenis 7y ago
  See, I don't like calling it a "scam" because that implies malice. Hanlon's razor may apply here. "Depression" is our modern analogue of "hysteria" in the past; a blanket term for a wide variety of poorly understood diseases. The medical establishment's strange resistance to exploring gut flora and inflammation as a cause of these kinds of diseases, on the other hand, is something I might call a scam.
- markroseman 7y ago
  Have met lots of people who are depressed and don't have a troubled past or present. Your descriptions of etiologies, how medications function and help, etc. are simplistic and ignorant at best. My opinion of your opinion is not high, but luckily that's not a good basis for judgment.
  - varjag 7y ago
    There seem to be no shortage of people on HN who confuse clinical depression with some kind of angst or broodiness.

collyw 7y ago

Where exactly is the line between the two drawn. I always got the impression that Psychiatry needed a medical degree while Psychology was similar but without one. I am pretty sure depression exists.

jonathanlydall 7y ago
My mother is a psychologist (not in US though). Psychologists treat just by talking through problems while pschiatrists treat with the help of drugs (as well as also talking). While my mother has PhD, psychiatrists require a medical degree.
bloak 7y ago
I'm not so sure. It depends what you mean by "depression". If you mean exactly what's written in the DSM then you should be sceptical. See "Crazy like us" by Ethan Watters: a great book, only part of it about depression. Remember that when Freud was active the main psychiatric ailment was "hysteria". Did hysteria exist? Does it still exist? To what extent is mental illness socially determined?

fao_ 7y ago

> I mean, does depression even exist, or is it a psychiatric scam? I don't think anyone who's experienced it would be asking this question.

lidHanteyk 7y ago
Hi! Lifelong experiencer of depression and several mental disorders. Am I mentally ill, or is the world really actually a horrible and callous place where most humans spend their time being negligent and abusive towards each other? At very best, psychiatrists might claim to be able to open up a wider perspective, which is why they used to be called "head-shrinkers", for their ability to humble and to remove egoist barriers, but a bit of meditation will do that too. So, is psychiatry's ability to give perspective worth the pathologizing effect that it has on people?
- S_A_P 7y ago
  I like how you worded that. I definitely have my moments when cynicism takes hold and I lose most desire to do anything creative or productive. I normally power through it and double down on walking and running. It’s not a 100% fix but it certainly prevents the feeling from being my overwhelming mind state. While I guess the definition fits, mental illness seems a hard word for depression. It does seem that the tide is turning and the stigma around mental health has steadily lifted with most people. I have mixed feelings around Psychology and Psychiatry. I still feel like there are too many doctors offering pills to cure your ailments without getting to the root of the problem. But that isn’t every doctor and I have seen things like CBT improve people’s lives. Ultimately I think that some of the “cure” must come from within and you have to want to change. I think a good doctor and therapist will help someone unload and frame things in such a way as to encourage that.
- friendlybus 7y ago
  Why isn’t it both? There are earthy cultures around the world that don’t have a concept of ownership or the strict boundaries of western life, living in different places and cultures is easier for some and you can easily make the critical case against the western world, ill or not. The trouble with a social intervention like therapy is the fundamental attribution error in sociology. Which character is the problem and which is the solution played out in a battle of the minds in an enclosed space. The government employed brainwashing therapist seeking to downplay any eccentricity that destabilises a social norm, or the poorly functioning client who blames others for their problems. Therapists have a habit of dumping the responsibility for generally unsolved philosophical questions about social interaction onto the client. Where is the line between internal and external social stimuli? Who do you attribute your problems to? What is the value in a diagnosis label? Answer these questions for yourself and you’ll cure many different ailments. Fail to find the answer and remain pathologized? Therapists routinely underserve the amount of education and philosophy required to heal. The diagnostic categories are a descriptive mess that are used as tools, yet people use them as definitions far too often. I recommend anyone interested in therapy and ideas to see Jordan peterson’s YouTube video Self-Deception in Psychopathology (from before his fame) where he gives a quick rundown of a view above the current running mill of therapy. It tackles briefly some philosophical problems with therapy.
solinent 7y ago
I've experienced it to the point where I almost died, and I agree, it's a psychiatric scam.

diegoperini 7y ago

My significant other is a psychologist. She describes depression like dark matter from physics. It's observable but we don't know what it is made of.

fpoling 7y ago
It is a bad analogy. We do not know even if dark matter exists as it is one of many possible explanations of a particular phenomenon. So the depression is like a galaxy rotation speed anomaly.

ryeights 7y ago

Well, the notion of depression as a chemical imbalance was brought into the fray to sell Zoloft...

q3k 7y ago

> I mean, does depression even exist, or is it a psychiatric scam? Yes. You're being disrespectful to people whose lives are severely affected by depression.

unethical_ban 7y ago
I think the hypothetical was posed to highlight the utility of these fields of study, despite their issues with reproducibility and stats.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
flatline 7y ago
It's a model. There are plenty of other models for the symptoms classified under clinical depression, human suffering is not a new thing that people just started trying to solve in the last century. Depression has some stigma attached to it, and big pharma profits a lot from it. The model and its treatments do help a lot of people, but there are an equal or greater number that they don't help. As a model it's pretty meh in my opinion but it's the best thing that modern science has come up with.
jshevek 7y ago
Nobody is questioning or invalidating their experiences. As I understand it, the issue is partly semantic. Is our system of labeling helping or hurting our understanding of reality?

derEitel 7y ago

The concept of a major depressive disorder exists. There are common symptoms and likely causes such as childhood trauma. Can we be certain it is a unanimous mental disorder? No, it might as well be several different disorders we haven't understood yet. But isn't that similar for most mental disorders?

fpoling 7y ago

I was skeptical about depression until I saw it in my son. This is a terrible condition with bad side-effects even in a mild form. And the only effective treatment is time.

nradov 7y ago
Some other treatments appear to be effective, at least in reducing symptoms, for some patients some of the time.
virgil_disgr4ce 7y ago
> And the only effective treatment is time ...? Depression does not improve on its own, at all. It has to be actively managed.
- fpoling 7y ago
  That is what was implied. The person needs help until time has chance to work.
- downerending 7y ago
  Passage of time and change of circumstance can provide some help, as some of us can attest.
jshevek 7y ago
"And the only effective treatment is time." I think you mean that time is necessary, not that time is sufficient.

nradov 7y ago

Does diabetes even exist? At some point these labels are more a matter of semantics than clear binary clinical determinations. For example, the current guideline is to diagnose a patient as diabetic if their uncontrolled hemoglobin A1c is over 6.5%. But the reality is that it's a spectrum with no clear dividing lines, significant fluctuations from day to day, individual genetic variations, etc. Likewise depression is just a convenient label for a bundle of loosely correlated symptoms. Some patients are clearly having a rough time and need treatment. Because it's impractical to deal with subtle differences between patients at scale, psychiatrists have defined some subjective criteria to decide who should be treated as depressed. https://www.medscape.com/answers/286759-14692/what-are-the-dsm-5-criteria-for-diagnosis-of-major-depressive-disorder-clinical-depression https://www.medscape.com/answers/286759-14692/what-are-the-d...

abnry 7y ago
The issue is that there is a measurement problem with many depression symptoms. You can have multiple people independently measure the blood glucose level of a patient and get the same result. And this result compares with other patients. With depression, you almost always have to rely on self-reporting or subjective evaluation by a health professional. One person saying they are depression might mean a whole lot more than another person saying it. It's not that you can't make measurements that are useful, its just that the error bars are so much larger.
matheusmoreira 7y ago
> Does diabetes even exist? Yes, absolutely. > For example, the current guideline is to diagnose a patient as diabetic if their uncontrolled hemoglobin A1c is over 6.5%. Several other objective tests can be used to diagnose diabetes. The disease could present with characteristic symptoms which match diabetes. The presence of comorbidities such as obesity also help with diagnosis. > But the reality is that it's a spectrum with no clear dividing lines, significant fluctuations from day to day, individual genetic variations, etc. This spectrum is called pre-diabetes. At some point, the risk becomes unacceptably high for the patient and treatment is indicated. This point has been determined through research. Yes, blood glucose does vary during the day depending on the person's metabolic state. This variability is well understood. Normal and abnormal is well-defined. Fasting blood glucose > 126 mg/dl is evidence of diabetes mellitus. Blood glucose 2 hours after ingesting 75 g of glucose > 200 mg/dl is evidence of diabetes mellitus.

matheusmoreira 7y ago

Depression exists. It is the most thoroughly researched psychiatric disorder. If left untreated, depression can lead to physical changes in the brain. It has enormous impact on the individual and society. https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/global/global-dalys-contributed-by-mental-and-behavioral-disorders.shtml https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/global/global-dal... https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/disability/us-dalys-contributed-by-mental-and-behavioral-disorders.shtml https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/disability/us-dal... > DALYs represent the total number of years lost to illness, disability, or premature death within a given population. > DALYs are calculated by adding the number of years of life lost to the number of years lived with disability (YLDs) for a certain disease or disorder.

solinent 7y ago
What's the mechanism? My point is that depression is such a wide category that even if it exists it's useless. You could say that "being human" is a disease, it always leads to death. I'm not saying "being human" doesn't exist.
- matheusmoreira 7y ago
  The pathophysiology of depression is not fully understood. It is possible that what we understand as depression today could become several distinct diseases in the future. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181668/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181668/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3984887/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3984887/ In any case, the impact of depression is known and it can't be ignored. Doctors must at least try to help depressed patients. There are models which guide pharmacological and behavorial treatments employed in current practice. They are proven to be superior to placebo.
  - solinent 7y ago
    That's my point. You haven't even come up with a basic taxonomy of depression and you're already applying your theory. In physics this would be blasphemous. > Doctors must at least try to help depressed patients. All the help I've received has been useless or actively harmful. No one even told me to exercise or diet, in fact, some suggested I take it easy, stop blaming myself. That was all wrong. I was to blame. Every morning, by blaming myself, I made better choices w.r.t health. Now I am no longer to blame, I have no depression. I used to be arthritic and asthmatic, now I am biking for hours straight, doing pull-ups every day.

sdegutis 7y ago

Fulton Sheen has spilled a significant amount of ink against psychiatry, and against many forms of psychology, because they all reject the existence of the soul. And if the soul does exist, but we make all sorts of assumptions based on the idea that it doesn't, then all our conclusions will be tainted if not completely wrong. He talked quite a bit on depression, psychosis, neurosis, anxiety, and other mental conditions. Incidentally, the stereotype that religion is only for the ignorant and that talking about it always devolves into an emotional and irrational argument, is only true for certain emasculated forms of Christianity, but not Catholicism, where Fulton Sheen proved that (high) intelligence is in no way contrary to religious belief, but actually religious concepts are better explained by those with higher intelligence. Anecdotally, one of the biggest reasons I bring up religion so much, especially in threads like this, is because Catholicism was the only form of psychology that actually helped me overcome my many great mental disorders, and I am confident that it will be able to help others through their lesser and fewer forms than I had. But because of the extreme prejudice that intellectual people have against religion in general and Catholicism specifically, there has been almost no public progress in this field. "Catholic counselors" have generally in my opinion been non-Catholic in their foundational principles and have in no way been able to help me, for example. And priests, although they should especially be educated about psychology from a Catholic foundation, especially in these days where it's more prevalent than ever (Fulton Sheen expands quit a bit on the reasoning), they have not seemed to recognize the serious need for this yet and have not caught up. So almost all of my improvements have been from independent research on and application of these things. I really wish that the intelligentsia in general and here especially would catch up, especially when I see so many people struggling in many of the same ways I did and have overcome in the past few years. That's why I try so hard on here to convince them it's actually for them. If they only read Thomas Aquinas and Fulton Sheen they might see that it's actually more of an intellectual position than agnosticism or atheism are. But sometimes it takes a person hitting rock bottom to realize that all their enlightened philosophy is useless to help them live a truly happy and fulfilling life. Sometimes only when we have the most pressure do we consider alternatives that may be a bit unpalatable to our preferences.

P_I_Staker 7y ago

Oh, depression definitely exists. It tends to be over-simplified and is too stigmatized, but it most definitely exists. Keep in mind that "depression" is a very general spectrum disorder with many different forms. Saying someone has depression is a bit like saying "they're sick"; but they could have the common cold, flu, COVID-19, ect. It's worth noting that there are people out there with what I'll call "inexplicable depression". In other words, everything could be going right for them. You could look at their life and find no flaws. Loving parents, deep, rich friendships, good profession, success, loving relationship with a partner, and comfortable financial situation. They seem to have it all, but just want to die. More often there's at least some trauma and adverse experiences. On the flip side, you can find people whose lives have been and continue to be just awful; yet they're fine (or at least no depression). It's not always predictable whether someone will have problems, just like how some smokers never get cancer. There's a scale of severity and even some people with it can't relate to everyone who has it. Someone who grew up in squalor and abuse isn't going to relate to a wealthy person with body image issues. I've had some amount of depression myself, but I've still been unable to relate to my friends. For example, one that flunked out of college, because he wouldn't get out of bed. I've felt bad, but never to the point of letting my life completely wither away. I guess the guy just couldn't do it. He was abused growing up, experienced some relationship problems, and starting having severe issues. I have absolutely zero doubt that the person was sick. Healthy people aren't bedridden. Posts like this concern me. You don't have to accept everything psychiatry as a field says. You can be skeptical. However, there's too much backlash to the slightest amount of acceptance and de-stigmatization of depression. Yes, it exists, you really don't want to get it, and it's a serious problem we need to keep addressing.

viklove 7y ago
> They seem to have it all, but just want to die. Maybe this just isn't a problem like doctors make it out to be. Maybe life isn't worth living. It seems like if you try to take up this position, you get shouted out of the room because no one wants to accept the fact that life is utterly meaningless and futile for a subset of people, and it's not a condition -- it's just an objective analysis of the situation. Slaving away for 60 years and having to spend the vast majority of your healthy, waking hours making someone else rich isn't rewarding. It's pointless. The good things in life -- family, friends, hobbies -- are sidelined and you're only allowed to focus on them 2/7 days of the week. Yeah, life really doesn't seem like it's worth living.

markroseman 7y ago

Oh please, come on. There's an entire "field of study" that seems designed to prove that through the age-old mechanism of twisting logic into absurd pretzel knots that don't hold up to scrutiny from any but the most casual observer. It's called antipsychiatry. If you want to get a taste of how shallow most of it is, check out https://markroseman.com/antipsychiatry/ https://markroseman.com/antipsychiatry/

hirako2000 7y ago

I beleive it is a scam. Every single person I've met who suffered from "depression" had a troubled past, and often a troubled present. Not saying the symptoms are mild. It's a nasty state to be in. Inability to sleep and concentrate, leading to all sort of physical issues and impossibility to learn and keep a job. All that being said, the causes are rather clear. Hard to fix. All these pshyco active treatments are judge bandades, anything to keep the brain quiet which in my opinion often aggregates the issue. Dependence, side effects... A person is not depressed but doesn't have its full brain capacity. It would be valuable if clinical consultants converted to social workers to help patients address the root causes instead of prescribing medications and whatnot. Thing is, it doesn't sell that well and isn't covered by your insurance. Medics and therapy sessions are.

pickdenis 7y ago
See, I don't like calling it a "scam" because that implies malice. Hanlon's razor may apply here. "Depression" is our modern analogue of "hysteria" in the past; a blanket term for a wide variety of poorly understood diseases. The medical establishment's strange resistance to exploring gut flora and inflammation as a cause of these kinds of diseases, on the other hand, is something I might call a scam.
markroseman 7y ago
Have met lots of people who are depressed and don't have a troubled past or present. Your descriptions of etiologies, how medications function and help, etc. are simplistic and ignorant at best. My opinion of your opinion is not high, but luckily that's not a good basis for judgment.
- varjag 7y ago
  There seem to be no shortage of people on HN who confuse clinical depression with some kind of angst or broodiness.