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Wow, what a truly offensive article. Firstly speaking as an Irish person, the dismissive tone here is outrageous: "And later in the century, as one phase of t
by alphadevx 7y ago
Wow, what a truly offensive article. Firstly speaking as an Irish person, the dismissive tone here is outrageous:
"And later in the century, as one phase of the conflict between England and Ireland followed another, the sins of Cromwell and his army in rooting out the supporters (both Catholic and Protestant) of the Stuarts in Ireland were used regularly as a stick with which to beat the English, albeit well over 300 years later, and as further proof that the Irish have perhaps the longest memories in the world."
For some historical context, start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Drogheda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Drogheda
And as for the conclusion:
"The growth of British power and prosperity in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries was in great measure built on those secure foundations. Cromwell’s part in leading the great change of culture was absolutely fundamental to that."
So Cromwell helped build the foundations of the British Empire, and that's a "good thing"? I don't know where to start, consider me triggered ;-)
- dev_north_east 7y ago> I don't know where to start, consider me triggered ;-) Ha! You and me both. As an Irish lad in the UK, one of the funniest things I still encounter is republicans (British ones!) who hold him up as a hero. You really have to wonder at times.
- alphadevx 7y agoI would love to see Britain become a republic some day for their benefit (up to them of course to vote on that), but agree they need a better hero.
- dev_north_east 7y agoI used to be of that mindset (re: become a republic) but tbh I'm more of the line of thinking, if it ain't broke... With the parliamentary style of government, you need a figurehead. So you'd have to tear up a whole host of UK conventions going back centuries and re-jig everything, just so someone else gets the ceremonial role? Much as some might like a complete re-write, I say expand the unit tests around it if minor bugs arise ( e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15492607 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15492607 ) and let the system run unless a major blocker comes up ;)
- unmole 6y agoI don't think replacing the Monarch with a ceremonial president requires a complete rewrite. It's more of a cosmetic refactoring, if you will.
- kingraoul3 7y agoKing! King! No point in the thing!
- ZanyProgrammer 7y agoLots of 17th century writers are held up as republican heroes, but usually not Cromwell himself (Levellers/Diggers, Harrington, etc).
- dev_north_east 7y agoMy comment relates more to irl conversations. I'll freely admit to not reading up too much on British republicanism.
- pjc50 7y agoIndeed - Cromwell wasn't an aberration, he was the start of the occupation of Ireland with all the usual brutality of colonialism, and the Orange Order will happily bring him out as a "stick" in the other direction.
- ZanyProgrammer 7y agoEngland ruled Ireland well before Cromwell.
- disgruntledphd2 7y agoYes and no. The "English" running Ireland pre-Cromwell were predominantly Anglo-Irish lords, and were mostly Catholic. Post-Cromwell, the brutality got much worse, and the Catholic vs Protestant dimension caused extremely repressive laws for Irish catholics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_Laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_Laws
- rsynnott 7y agoThe Norman and then English occupation of Ireland had a number of stages from the 12th century on, but Cromwell definitely marked a sea change.