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Providence Lost: The Rise and Fall of Cromwell’s Protectorate
- alphadevx 6y agoWow, what a truly offensive article. Firstly speaking as an Irish person, the dismissive tone here is outrageous: "And later in the century, as one phase of the conflict between England and Ireland followed another, the sins of Cromwell and his army in rooting out the supporters (both Catholic and Protestant) of the Stuarts in Ireland were used regularly as a stick with which to beat the English, albeit well over 300 years later, and as further proof that the Irish have perhaps the longest memories in the world." For some historical context, start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Drogheda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Drogheda And as for the conclusion: "The growth of British power and prosperity in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries was in great measure built on those secure foundations. Cromwell’s part in leading the great change of culture was absolutely fundamental to that." So Cromwell helped build the foundations of the British Empire, and that's a "good thing"? I don't know where to start, consider me triggered ;-)
- dev_north_east 6y ago> I don't know where to start, consider me triggered ;-) Ha! You and me both. As an Irish lad in the UK, one of the funniest things I still encounter is republicans (British ones!) who hold him up as a hero. You really have to wonder at times.
- alphadevx 6y agoI would love to see Britain become a republic some day for their benefit (up to them of course to vote on that), but agree they need a better hero.
- dev_north_east 6y agoI used to be of that mindset (re: become a republic) but tbh I'm more of the line of thinking, if it ain't broke... With the parliamentary style of government, you need a figurehead. So you'd have to tear up a whole host of UK conventions going back centuries and re-jig everything, just so someone else gets the ceremonial role? Much as some might like a complete re-write, I say expand the unit tests around it if minor bugs arise ( e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15492607 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15492607 ) and let the system run unless a major blocker comes up ;)
- unmole 6y agoI don't think replacing the Monarch with a ceremonial president requires a complete rewrite. It's more of a cosmetic refactoring, if you will.
- kingraoul3 6y agoKing! King! No point in the thing!
- ZanyProgrammer 6y agoLots of 17th century writers are held up as republican heroes, but usually not Cromwell himself (Levellers/Diggers, Harrington, etc).
- dev_north_east 6y agoMy comment relates more to irl conversations. I'll freely admit to not reading up too much on British republicanism.
- pjc50 6y agoIndeed - Cromwell wasn't an aberration, he was the start of the occupation of Ireland with all the usual brutality of colonialism, and the Orange Order will happily bring him out as a "stick" in the other direction.
- ZanyProgrammer 6y agoEngland ruled Ireland well before Cromwell.
- disgruntledphd2 6y agoYes and no. The "English" running Ireland pre-Cromwell were predominantly Anglo-Irish lords, and were mostly Catholic. Post-Cromwell, the brutality got much worse, and the Catholic vs Protestant dimension caused extremely repressive laws for Irish catholics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_Laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_Laws
- rsynnott 6y agoThe Norman and then English occupation of Ireland had a number of stages from the 12th century on, but Cromwell definitely marked a sea change.
- dev_north_east 6y ago> albeit well over 300 years later, and as further proof that the Irish have perhaps the longest memories in the world. Oh right. At what point do historical figures get a free pass on bringing up their bad doings? And by bad doings, we're talking deaths in the hundreds of thousands, enforced slavery etc.
- LongMemory 6y agoYeah, I am Irish and I think that patriotism is a disease. But even so, historical figures who have reputations for ethnic cleansing and genocide [1] should not be forgotten OR forgiven. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromwellian_conquest_of_Ireland#Historical_debate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromwellian_conquest_of_Irelan...
- LatteLazy 6y agoOut of interest, how is Cromwell taught in Irish schools and what do they say about the causes of the war?
- ZanyProgrammer 6y ago“Irish slavery” is usually a sign someone is a racist asshole who has no idea what they’re talking about.
- dev_north_east 6y agoI'm not American and have no interest in that side of stuff. Keep your partisan political terms and debates to yourselves. Call them forced to migrate, indented servants or whatever makes yourself feel good. I'll stick with the accurate term for such. Edit: Sorry for being a dick, I made assumptions there.
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- ploika 6y ago
- pjc50 6y agoCromwell really does have a lingering propaganda support, doesn't he? The UK is one of a very small number of countries to have deliberately restored its monarchy after a revolution and period of parliamentary government, and the reason for that is that Cromwellian government was even worse for a lot of people. A modern analogue might be the Iranian Revolution; congratulations on getting rid of the puppet monarch controlled by overseas interests, now dancing is banned. Or in the case of Cromwell, Christmas. https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/what-is-designation/heritage-highlights/did-oliver-cromwell-really-ban-christmas/ https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/what-is-designation/h... The UK does an extremely bad job of teaching its historial "religious" conflict, which was rarely about doctrine so much as temporal power-politics.
- captain_price7 6y agoThe article says things got worse not because cromwell was worse than Charles 1, but rather he inherited the mess caused by charles' policies and a country broken by civil war. Naturally it was worse for many people (specially Irish). But I wonder what would happen if characters like Cromwell weren't there at that time, Charles was allowed to continue bypassing parliament and ruling like a tyrant, and Britain turned into an absolute monarchy like France and Prussia. I'm not defending Cromwell. But I think if he was an evil, perhaps it was a necessary evil. About Iran, while it's absolutely not a perfect country, I can not agree that things got worse for average Iranian after revolution. Iranians dead from starvation was a common scenery in Tehran's street during shah. Things did get worse for a tiny ruling-westernised-urban elite, who were forced to go into exile and now vocal in western countries against the regime, but for an average Iranian I do believe things got better. Btw, I'm from Bangladesh, meaning I'm neither British nor Iranian.
- notahacker 6y agoHe certainly inherited a country broken by civil war, but it is difficult to argue that his own decision to bypass Parliament and rule like a tyrant was the only possible course of action, or an improvement on his predecessor. Ultimately if Cromwell helped steer the country away from despotism - a matter of great debate - it was less by example and more because he, like Charles I, ended up having his head lopped off to popular acclaim (posthumously after a natural death, in his case) and subsequent leaders largely chose not to emulate him.
- tenant 6y agoThe article,though not the book, is by Simon Heffer who's always a bit controversial on matters Irish. In my view he'd be one of those British who still feel that, on maps the British Isles should in their entirety be coloured pink just as many Irish feel that the whole island of Ireland should be coloured green.
- Quarrel 6y agoThis is a recounting the story in the book, and the threads the author of the book draws out. This is not a review. It is terrible. I want to know is the book interesting, is it well written, engaging, well-paced? Critique it!
- jhbadger 6y agoThat isn't what magazines like "The Critic", "London Review of Books", and the like publish. They aren't like movie reviews ("two thumbs up!"). Instead, the articles are by other people who know the respective subjects and while sometimes the reviews criticize the theses of the books, they aren't interested in whether it is an exciting page-turner.
- kaycebasques 6y agoIf there's any one here that's well-versed in USA history and this episode of Cromwell history, can you give me an example of an event in American history that's similarly controversial along the lines of what I'm seeing in this HN discussion? I know that there will be no perfect comparison but I sense that there is some historical event with a similar sort of political charge and ambiguity.
- pjc50 6y agoBit of an odd place to ask .. surely most of American history has politically charged ambiguity to it? The least controversial bits are the two world wars and the War of Independence itself. Everything beyond that is up for grabs, in the colonialism vs. post-colonialism struggle. The civil war is the main contended issue, right up to the present day. To a much greater extent than it is in the UK outside of the few areas of sectarian Catholic/Protestant fighting (mostly Northern Ireland, Glasgow). Even there the central figure is more likely to be William of Orange (a few decades later) than Cromwell.
- joveian 6y agoI agree most of American history is charged and comparing civil wars makes sense, but I would add that much of the US government interaction with the first nations seems generally comparable as well. The history of Oklahoma, boarding schools, allotment, and the recent pipeline protests are four particular areas (there are many others) that are very charged today. Looking at it a bit differently, Texas history, where a bunch of ranchers decided on their own to expand the US, could be comparable as well and is still charged today.
- DubiousPusher 6y agoFor a primer on this period take a listen to the now defunct Bing Thinking History Podcast http://bingethinkinghistory.blogspot.com/?m=1 http://bingethinkinghistory.blogspot.com/?m=1 And the early episodes of Mike Duncan's Revolutions podcast. https://www.revolutionspodcast.com/ https://www.revolutionspodcast.com/ Together these really disabused of the propaganda taught in American schools like that the entire world was under tyranny before the American Republic, that the founders were geniuses that came up with religious toleration, consent of governed and seperation of powers all on their own, etc.
- watersb 6y agoI am just now re-reading Neal Stephenson's "System of the World" or "Baroque Cycle"[0], the first book of which is set in Restoration-Era London. A fictionalized account, the flavor of which serves to resonate with the feel of dot-Com startup disruption. Which as I write this, my own words sound trite and trivial. Stephenson's work is anything but: Civil War in England, Queen Anne's War in the American Colonies, interminable war in continental Europe... So far, it gives short shrift to England's treatment of Ireland. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Baroque_Cycle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Baroque_Cycle
- viburnum 6y ago“the sins of Cromwell and his army in rooting out the supporters (both Catholic and Protestant) of the Stuarts in Ireland were used regularly as a stick with which to beat the English, albeit well over 300 years later, and as further proof that the Irish have perhaps the longest memories in the world” People tend to remember when you kill a third of their population.