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To me it seems the problem with Google goes far deeper than struggling with bad SEO. - For years it has been next to impossible to get a result that is faithfu

To me it seems the problem with Google goes far deeper than struggling with bad SEO. - For years it has been next to impossible to get a result that is faithful to the search you actually typed in. This is not dependent on SEO spammers at all, only on Googles unwillingness to accept that not every user is equal and some of us mean exactly what we write, especially when we take the time to enclose our queries in double quotes and set the "verbatim" option. - Ad targeting has been so bad it has been ridiculous. Yes, on average it works but around the edges it is somewhere between tragic and hilarious. For ten years after I met my wife the most relevant ads Google could think of was dating sites. Not toys, not family holidays, not tech conferences, not magazine subscriptions, not offers from local shops, but scammy dating sites that was so ridiculous that I cannot imagine how most people would fall for them. (For a while I wondered if this was all a fluke but now I have confirmed it happens to others in my situation as well.) - Also in other areas it is becoming ridiculous. For example: what is the idea behind aggressively showing me captcas while I'm logged in with two different google controlled accounts, one gmail and one gsuite, both paid?

capableweb 7y ago
> Yes, on average it works Maybe we frequent vastly different websites, but this has absolutely not been true for me, even for companies who are supposed to be experts at using their data. I don't think I've ever seen an ad that has actually been relevant, and I'm not even trying to hide my habits or behaviors. For example, take Amazon. Their ads all over the web frequently recommends me stuff I've already bought just a month ago, the very same product. Or the products they recommend are way out of my zone, like woman clothing while I never purchased woman clothing or anything close to it. So, I'm not sure how the ad market even goes around and my friends are describing the same behavior from the ads, even from companies that have my entire shopping history already (like Amazon)
- eitland 7y ago
  > > Yes, on average it works > Maybe we frequent vastly different websites... I think we agree. What I mean is on average it works for Google, not that it works for us. They still makes boatloads of cash. For what I know the targeting is equally bad for you and me and everyone and they are just convincing advertisers that is worth paying for despite this.
  - capableweb 7y ago
    Right, that's a good point, that it's working on their side with convincing the advertisers. Thanks for clarifying so I could understand!
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  > I'm not sure how the ad market even goes around The ad market's business isn't delivering right ads to you, it's convincing people paying for those ads to part with their money. It doesn't have to work well, as long as it works a bit, and there isn't any better alternative around.
mcv 7y ago
> "For years it has been next to impossible to get a result that is faithful to the search you actually typed in." Good lord, yes. If I type two words, I want preference for sites that contain both of them, yet the first results all have either one or the other, because surely I must be more interested in a popular site that uses only one of these, right? Google is sometimes too smart, trying to interpret exact words I type as vaguely related words. Sometimes that's relevant, but often it's not. > "For ten years after I met my wife the most relevant ads Google could think of was dating sites. Not toys, not family holidays," They have a tendency to show you ads for exactly the thing you don't need anymore because you already found it. I don't think AI is in any danger of taking over the world just yet. Except with bad advertising, apparently.
- Tomte 7y ago
  > They have a tendency to show you ads for exactly the thing you don't need anymore because you already found it Say you searched for a TV a month ago. Now you're seeing lots of ads about TVs. Stupid Google. But is it? A substantial fraction of those people are returning their TV because something is wrong with it. Now they are looking for another TV set. Sure, the majority keeps their TV. But it is still profitable to target all those TV buyers, because they have self-selected into the set of people who really want a TV now, and they are willing to pay. Reaching the fraction of those who need another one is probably[1] very lucrative. [1] I'm sure Google has run the numbers
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    Agreeing: This thread of thought comes up semi-regularly here, I've argued similarly to you. People will rebuy good products, or be stimulated to replace other similar products (bought a new TV for the kitchen, now the lounge TV seems dated, new boots feel awesome get another pair for when they wear out, new $thing is fun buy one for friends birthday.). There's also a big place for brand enforcement. Show Sony stuff, to remind someone ['s subconscious!] they bought Sony. A tertiary effect is what I call the "Starbucks Purposeful Bad Naming effect" - you get ads for the exact TV you bought -- beyond the brand reinforcement, etc., you also get to tell everyone you meet a weird story about how "internet advertising is broken ..." and "yes, my new Sony TV is great thanks, you should get one". Those ad agencies aren't stupid; they have metrics for their metrics and have tracking that can tell you to the second when your gut bacteria burps ...
BostonFern 7y ago
You're not their customer, advertisers are, so it's only natural that the ads you see aren't personalized. That's never been the goal. It is, however, technically a potential benefit that the more exactly advertisers can target you, the more relevant ads you could be seeing, which is a wonderful sales pitch for users who are agnostic anyway, but that's not how advertising works in practice.
- eitland 7y ago
  > You're not their customer, advertisers are, 1. I'm well aware of this 2. It doesn't contradict anything I wrote 3. I've read it so many times and seen it misapplied so many times it is getting annoying. > so it's only natural that the ads you see aren't personalized. That's never been the goal. I doubt it was the intent of the advertisers to waste expensive impressions on people who weren't in the target audience at all, so I'm pretty sure they expected some personalization WRT which customers gets what ads. I also very much doubt that it was Googles intention to annoy me to the point where I trash them in public foras, I just don't think they're capable of fixing it anymore as they are way to busy "being Google", e.g. doing cool stuff while not listening to customers (I was planning to add more here, but this single example seems to summarize it well.) I recognize I might be a bit more direct than usual here and you aren't responsible for the first 97 times I've seen this meme here but as an answer to my question it is not applicable as far as I can see an also generally that meme is just noise here at HN now. (Anyone who is actually in todays 10000 lucky WRT the "you're not the customer" meme, feel free to prove me wrong.)
  - BostonFern 7y ago
    Meme? If hearing this uttered bothers you this much, then maybe complaining about poor relevance in Google ads isn't such a good idea. I'm sorry that I seem to have offended you.
    - eitland 7y ago
      I'll try to explain: My post may contain a meme but it was directly relevant to the post above. Mentioning that I'm not Googles customer is significantly less relevant (I think irrelevant) when it is obvious that it should have been in the actual customers best interest to avoid spamming me with expensive and utterly irrelevant ads.
DoubleGlazing 7y ago
That's why I miss pre-Google search engines such as AltaVista and alltheweb. "If you searched for "some obscure string of words" you would only get results that matches that exact string. I really don't like how Google just chooses to vary the spelling of your query when a match isn't found. I often search for electronics components using their part number. I'll type in something like "P204PPX" (a random code I just made up) and despite there being no match Google still gives me pages of results that are nowhere near what I was looking for. And the worst thing is that this is all done to keep those ad dollars flowing. Look at how many companies always have a paid advert associated with their name when a search is made. They are paranoid about losing rank due to Google fiddling their algorithm or someone else doing a better SEO job using their brand.
- KMag 7y ago
  Google used to respect search operators, and dramatically tone down query optimization for queries that contained operators. As I've written elsewhere, I suspect learn-to-rank is to blame[0], by optimizing ranking for generic sloppy queries despite your query being very focused. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22747889 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22747889
- fingerlocks 7y ago
  If a match isn’t found with your verbatim query, then it falls back to something similar. At least that’s my experience. Random string of text still matches exact in quotes: https://www.google.com/search?q=%E2%80%9CI%20really%20don%27t%20like%20how%20Google%20just%20chooses%20to%20vary%20the%20spelling%20of%20your%20query%20when%20a%20match%20isn%27t%20found.%E2%80%9D&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1-m https://www.google.com/search?q=%E2%80%9CI%20really%20don%27...
callalex 7y ago
> - Also in other areas it is becoming ridiculous. For example: what is the idea behind aggressively showing me captcas while I'm logged in with two different google controlled accounts, one gmail and one gsuite, both paid? To intentionally discourage you from using Firefox so you give in and switch to their stalker browser.

capableweb 7y ago

> Yes, on average it works Maybe we frequent vastly different websites, but this has absolutely not been true for me, even for companies who are supposed to be experts at using their data. I don't think I've ever seen an ad that has actually been relevant, and I'm not even trying to hide my habits or behaviors. For example, take Amazon. Their ads all over the web frequently recommends me stuff I've already bought just a month ago, the very same product. Or the products they recommend are way out of my zone, like woman clothing while I never purchased woman clothing or anything close to it. So, I'm not sure how the ad market even goes around and my friends are describing the same behavior from the ads, even from companies that have my entire shopping history already (like Amazon)

eitland 7y ago
> > Yes, on average it works > Maybe we frequent vastly different websites... I think we agree. What I mean is on average it works for Google, not that it works for us. They still makes boatloads of cash. For what I know the targeting is equally bad for you and me and everyone and they are just convincing advertisers that is worth paying for despite this.
- capableweb 7y ago
  Right, that's a good point, that it's working on their side with convincing the advertisers. Thanks for clarifying so I could understand!
TeMPOraL 7y ago
> I'm not sure how the ad market even goes around The ad market's business isn't delivering right ads to you, it's convincing people paying for those ads to part with their money. It doesn't have to work well, as long as it works a bit, and there isn't any better alternative around.

mcv 7y ago

> "For years it has been next to impossible to get a result that is faithful to the search you actually typed in." Good lord, yes. If I type two words, I want preference for sites that contain both of them, yet the first results all have either one or the other, because surely I must be more interested in a popular site that uses only one of these, right? Google is sometimes too smart, trying to interpret exact words I type as vaguely related words. Sometimes that's relevant, but often it's not. > "For ten years after I met my wife the most relevant ads Google could think of was dating sites. Not toys, not family holidays," They have a tendency to show you ads for exactly the thing you don't need anymore because you already found it. I don't think AI is in any danger of taking over the world just yet. Except with bad advertising, apparently.

Tomte 7y ago
> They have a tendency to show you ads for exactly the thing you don't need anymore because you already found it Say you searched for a TV a month ago. Now you're seeing lots of ads about TVs. Stupid Google. But is it? A substantial fraction of those people are returning their TV because something is wrong with it. Now they are looking for another TV set. Sure, the majority keeps their TV. But it is still profitable to target all those TV buyers, because they have self-selected into the set of people who really want a TV now, and they are willing to pay. Reaching the fraction of those who need another one is probably[1] very lucrative. [1] I'm sure Google has run the numbers
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  Agreeing: This thread of thought comes up semi-regularly here, I've argued similarly to you. People will rebuy good products, or be stimulated to replace other similar products (bought a new TV for the kitchen, now the lounge TV seems dated, new boots feel awesome get another pair for when they wear out, new $thing is fun buy one for friends birthday.). There's also a big place for brand enforcement. Show Sony stuff, to remind someone ['s subconscious!] they bought Sony. A tertiary effect is what I call the "Starbucks Purposeful Bad Naming effect" - you get ads for the exact TV you bought -- beyond the brand reinforcement, etc., you also get to tell everyone you meet a weird story about how "internet advertising is broken ..." and "yes, my new Sony TV is great thanks, you should get one". Those ad agencies aren't stupid; they have metrics for their metrics and have tracking that can tell you to the second when your gut bacteria burps ...

BostonFern 7y ago

You're not their customer, advertisers are, so it's only natural that the ads you see aren't personalized. That's never been the goal. It is, however, technically a potential benefit that the more exactly advertisers can target you, the more relevant ads you could be seeing, which is a wonderful sales pitch for users who are agnostic anyway, but that's not how advertising works in practice.

eitland 7y ago
> You're not their customer, advertisers are, 1. I'm well aware of this 2. It doesn't contradict anything I wrote 3. I've read it so many times and seen it misapplied so many times it is getting annoying. > so it's only natural that the ads you see aren't personalized. That's never been the goal. I doubt it was the intent of the advertisers to waste expensive impressions on people who weren't in the target audience at all, so I'm pretty sure they expected some personalization WRT which customers gets what ads. I also very much doubt that it was Googles intention to annoy me to the point where I trash them in public foras, I just don't think they're capable of fixing it anymore as they are way to busy "being Google", e.g. doing cool stuff while not listening to customers (I was planning to add more here, but this single example seems to summarize it well.) I recognize I might be a bit more direct than usual here and you aren't responsible for the first 97 times I've seen this meme here but as an answer to my question it is not applicable as far as I can see an also generally that meme is just noise here at HN now. (Anyone who is actually in todays 10000 lucky WRT the "you're not the customer" meme, feel free to prove me wrong.)
- BostonFern 7y ago
  Meme? If hearing this uttered bothers you this much, then maybe complaining about poor relevance in Google ads isn't such a good idea. I'm sorry that I seem to have offended you.
  - eitland 7y ago
    I'll try to explain: My post may contain a meme but it was directly relevant to the post above. Mentioning that I'm not Googles customer is significantly less relevant (I think irrelevant) when it is obvious that it should have been in the actual customers best interest to avoid spamming me with expensive and utterly irrelevant ads.

DoubleGlazing 7y ago

That's why I miss pre-Google search engines such as AltaVista and alltheweb. "If you searched for "some obscure string of words" you would only get results that matches that exact string. I really don't like how Google just chooses to vary the spelling of your query when a match isn't found. I often search for electronics components using their part number. I'll type in something like "P204PPX" (a random code I just made up) and despite there being no match Google still gives me pages of results that are nowhere near what I was looking for. And the worst thing is that this is all done to keep those ad dollars flowing. Look at how many companies always have a paid advert associated with their name when a search is made. They are paranoid about losing rank due to Google fiddling their algorithm or someone else doing a better SEO job using their brand.

KMag 7y ago
Google used to respect search operators, and dramatically tone down query optimization for queries that contained operators. As I've written elsewhere, I suspect learn-to-rank is to blame[0], by optimizing ranking for generic sloppy queries despite your query being very focused. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22747889 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22747889
fingerlocks 7y ago
If a match isn’t found with your verbatim query, then it falls back to something similar. At least that’s my experience. Random string of text still matches exact in quotes: https://www.google.com/search?q=%E2%80%9CI%20really%20don%27t%20like%20how%20Google%20just%20chooses%20to%20vary%20the%20spelling%20of%20your%20query%20when%20a%20match%20isn%27t%20found.%E2%80%9D&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1-m https://www.google.com/search?q=%E2%80%9CI%20really%20don%27...

callalex 7y ago

> - Also in other areas it is becoming ridiculous. For example: what is the idea behind aggressively showing me captcas while I'm logged in with two different google controlled accounts, one gmail and one gsuite, both paid? To intentionally discourage you from using Firefox so you give in and switch to their stalker browser.