7 ms·

Ballerinas defy the corporeal in a quest for the ethereal (2019)

48 points by tintinnabula 7y ago

every 7y ago
There are a number of physical impositions placed on ballerinas. They are expected to have a small head, a long neck, small breasts, narrow hips and thin, graceful limbs. Mutilation of the feet to complete the illusion is simply part of the package...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- luxuryballs 7y ago
  It’s like the opposite of the physical impositions placed on bouncers.
- gadders 7y ago
  Fortunately Misty Copeland has changed that somewhat.
  - every 7y ago
    Misty has the prototypical physique of a modern dancer but prefers the classical repertoire. Hopefully one day the two will merge and leave en pointe behind as a curious relic...
- PakG1 7y ago
  And here I thought China had the only culture in history that would torture women's feet... Sheesh, the image requirements society puts on women, especially on female performers, is insane.
sbaha88 7y ago
It is tragic that ballet requires such physical sacrifice, because it is such a beautiful art form.
- brabel 7y ago
  It would still be beautiful without the pointe. For some reason, in many activities, people tend to go to the greatest lengths for even the smallest gains... ballet without pointe would still be ballet, I think non-experts like me would barely notice if they stopped using those - yet all ballet dancers sacrifice their feet for that perhaps last 2%. Why isn't there any ballets that just don't use pointe? Perhaps there is, would be nice to get to know about them.
  - sbaha88 7y ago
    Yep, totally agree with you. It doesn't have to be that way
  - mudita 7y ago
    I think that part of the allure and magic of ballet is exactly this perfection, this going for the last few percents. But I agree with you that dance without pointe can be great. I went a unconventional way as a dancer. I discovered dance relatively late in my life, quit my computer science phd and did a bit unconventional contemporary dance education, which had almost no classical Ballet training. So I don’t know so much about what’s going on in the Ballet world. But I do think that not all contemporary Ballet dancers use pointe. Also, most contemporary dancers are trained in Ballet as well and depending on the style of the artists contemporary dance can contain more or less Ballet elements without doing pointe work. See for example Wayne McGregor, whose performances look very classical to me: https://youtu.be/2SMmL6kIx-w https://youtu.be/2SMmL6kIx-w Or for example these scene of performances by Pina Bausch and Peeping Tom, which are maybe a bit less classical, but performed by excellent dancers, who are also trained classically. https://youtu.be/J3i7r79dtFo https://youtu.be/J3i7r79dtFo https://youtu.be/b1SIUcfS1Zw https://youtu.be/b1SIUcfS1Zw In general there has been a lot of progress in working with the body, not against it, especially in contemporary dance, but also in Ballet.
  - sooheon 7y ago
    Whether it actually is even 2% more beautiful is entirely subjective. Disciplines that are entirely subjective and cultural tend to develop memetic inbreeding, and one of the ways to reach "ever greater heights" in such an art is with costly signaling. Claims that such and such arbitrary sacrifice is necessary for a higher ideal or beauty are easy to sustain through dogma (because there is no truly objective beauty). An example: Kyokushin, the "full contact" karate of its time, is now a shell of its former self, with simultaneous xenophobia and infighting. It's lost touch by declining to be tested against reality, and now you have 100kg practitioners being pummeled by 65kg MMArtists[1]. You hear the exact same memes about following tradition and sacrificing the body in order to attain a higher ideal. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPt9c_0bsZc&feature=youtu.be&t=195 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPt9c_0bsZc&feature=youtu.be...
harimau777 7y ago
In college I took a course called Anatomy for Dance seeking to help my martial arts practice. The course covered muscular and skeletal anatomy as well as the basics of stretching and strength training. Other than myself everyone in the class was a dance major (and I think that all of them were specifically ballet majors but I'm not certain). Two things that I recall: Some of the girls already had arthritis. Some of the girls expressed concern that if they developed the muscles that support dance (if I remember correctly it was specifically the hamstrings that were being discussed) it might result in a figure that was considered negative for a ballerina.
hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
Just responding to some of the comments here about how ballet is "tragic" in that it requires such sacrifice of it's dancers. I disagree. Yes, it does require sacrifice, but no more really than any high level athletes. I think a lot of unhealthy ideals in the dance world are/have changed. Unfortunately, Balanchine was responsible for many of the worst tendencies in the ballet world, e.g. an obsession with skinniness and complete disregard for dancer's mental health. Now, though, dancers are also rightfully seen as athletes, strength is seen as beauty, and much more attention is paid to their mental and physical health. Yes, ballet movement is unnatural, but it can be done in a way that doesn't destroy someone's body (and mind).
- lazyant 7y ago
  One difference with other athletes is that, as with gymnasts, dancers have to start really early in their childhood (because they peak earlier than other sports, due to the kind of preferred body type), so you are asking a sacrifice to a 9-12 year old that in most sports is not required until 13-18 or whatever, at an age where many things are decided for them by their parents instead of by them.
  - pnw_hazor 7y ago
    One thing to keep in mind is that in dance, gymnastics, or figure skating non-competitive kids/families are usually identified early and then directed into recreational programs. By 12 YO most girls are in the recreational tracks rather than competitive or pre-professional tracks. Also, by 12 years old, the kids are motivating themselves. If the parents are pushing them at this point, they will soon quit or move to recreational programs. The amount of training or practice time is relatively minor for kids until they hit 12+ years old. And, then it is just the few the that remain in competitive/pre-professionsal programs that ramp up the training intensity. While some families with money do over train kids when they are little, it really isn't much of an advantage because physical/natural talent begins to separate kids around 10-12 years old such that the excess early training during ages 5-9 is washed out. Thus, a 7 year old that is taking 5 lessons a week will excel as compared to most other 7-10 year olds that are taking 1 or 2 lessons per week. But if kids join the competitive ranks everyone is taking 3-4-5 lessons per week and the early lessons don't make that much difference anymore because anyone who is competitive will have caught up. Ballet training has a similar split, where kids at a certain age/level are invited to the academy/pre-professional divisions that require 3-4+ classes a week. Otherwise, they drop into recreational dance (which can still be grueling but it is not on a professional track). Source: My daughter was a competitive figure skater. She also competed in rhythmic gymnastics until it interfered too much with figure skating. Her training included a serious amount of ballet, she did a year or two of pointe before moving away from ballet. She turned to Chinese dance after turning down an invitation to join her ballet school academy/pre-professional division. My daughter retired from competitive skating in her junior year of high school. She kept up the Chinese dance and did track and field until she went to West Point (USMA). It was an awesome ride while it lasted. Expensive, time consuming, but very much worth it. However, I could never recommend artistic gymnastics except for little kids. It causes way too many injuries and requires too much gym time. I can't remember the levels - but as soon as the full height balance beam comes into play it is time to switch to recreational or move on. In our case, that is when we switched our daughter to Rhythmic. Note, my son was doing little league baseball and basketball in elementary school, and then select teams in middle school, select and varsity in HS. He had more injuries than my daughter (some severe ankle sprains in high school).
bitwize 7y ago
My girlfriend trained in ballet throughout her childhood and teenage years -- like so many other girls she wanted to be a ballerina. Today she has a hammer toe, her ankles are shot, and she needs a hip replacement. Still the most fun girl to dance with, though, when she can manage the pain.

48 points by tintinnabula 7y ago

There are a number of physical impositions placed on ballerinas. They are expected to have a small head, a long neck, small breasts, narrow hips and thin, graceful limbs. Mutilation of the feet to complete the illusion is simply part of the package...

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
luxuryballs 7y ago
It’s like the opposite of the physical impositions placed on bouncers.
gadders 7y ago
Fortunately Misty Copeland has changed that somewhat.
- every 7y ago
  Misty has the prototypical physique of a modern dancer but prefers the classical repertoire. Hopefully one day the two will merge and leave en pointe behind as a curious relic...
PakG1 7y ago
And here I thought China had the only culture in history that would torture women's feet... Sheesh, the image requirements society puts on women, especially on female performers, is insane.

sbaha88 7y ago

It is tragic that ballet requires such physical sacrifice, because it is such a beautiful art form.

brabel 7y ago
It would still be beautiful without the pointe. For some reason, in many activities, people tend to go to the greatest lengths for even the smallest gains... ballet without pointe would still be ballet, I think non-experts like me would barely notice if they stopped using those - yet all ballet dancers sacrifice their feet for that perhaps last 2%. Why isn't there any ballets that just don't use pointe? Perhaps there is, would be nice to get to know about them.
- sbaha88 7y ago
  Yep, totally agree with you. It doesn't have to be that way
- mudita 7y ago
  I think that part of the allure and magic of ballet is exactly this perfection, this going for the last few percents. But I agree with you that dance without pointe can be great. I went a unconventional way as a dancer. I discovered dance relatively late in my life, quit my computer science phd and did a bit unconventional contemporary dance education, which had almost no classical Ballet training. So I don’t know so much about what’s going on in the Ballet world. But I do think that not all contemporary Ballet dancers use pointe. Also, most contemporary dancers are trained in Ballet as well and depending on the style of the artists contemporary dance can contain more or less Ballet elements without doing pointe work. See for example Wayne McGregor, whose performances look very classical to me: https://youtu.be/2SMmL6kIx-w https://youtu.be/2SMmL6kIx-w Or for example these scene of performances by Pina Bausch and Peeping Tom, which are maybe a bit less classical, but performed by excellent dancers, who are also trained classically. https://youtu.be/J3i7r79dtFo https://youtu.be/J3i7r79dtFo https://youtu.be/b1SIUcfS1Zw https://youtu.be/b1SIUcfS1Zw In general there has been a lot of progress in working with the body, not against it, especially in contemporary dance, but also in Ballet.
- sooheon 7y ago
  Whether it actually is even 2% more beautiful is entirely subjective. Disciplines that are entirely subjective and cultural tend to develop memetic inbreeding, and one of the ways to reach "ever greater heights" in such an art is with costly signaling. Claims that such and such arbitrary sacrifice is necessary for a higher ideal or beauty are easy to sustain through dogma (because there is no truly objective beauty). An example: Kyokushin, the "full contact" karate of its time, is now a shell of its former self, with simultaneous xenophobia and infighting. It's lost touch by declining to be tested against reality, and now you have 100kg practitioners being pummeled by 65kg MMArtists[1]. You hear the exact same memes about following tradition and sacrificing the body in order to attain a higher ideal. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPt9c_0bsZc&feature=youtu.be&t=195 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPt9c_0bsZc&feature=youtu.be...

harimau777 7y ago

In college I took a course called Anatomy for Dance seeking to help my martial arts practice. The course covered muscular and skeletal anatomy as well as the basics of stretching and strength training. Other than myself everyone in the class was a dance major (and I think that all of them were specifically ballet majors but I'm not certain). Two things that I recall: Some of the girls already had arthritis. Some of the girls expressed concern that if they developed the muscles that support dance (if I remember correctly it was specifically the hamstrings that were being discussed) it might result in a figure that was considered negative for a ballerina.

hn_throwaway_99 7y ago

Just responding to some of the comments here about how ballet is "tragic" in that it requires such sacrifice of it's dancers. I disagree. Yes, it does require sacrifice, but no more really than any high level athletes. I think a lot of unhealthy ideals in the dance world are/have changed. Unfortunately, Balanchine was responsible for many of the worst tendencies in the ballet world, e.g. an obsession with skinniness and complete disregard for dancer's mental health. Now, though, dancers are also rightfully seen as athletes, strength is seen as beauty, and much more attention is paid to their mental and physical health. Yes, ballet movement is unnatural, but it can be done in a way that doesn't destroy someone's body (and mind).

lazyant 7y ago
One difference with other athletes is that, as with gymnasts, dancers have to start really early in their childhood (because they peak earlier than other sports, due to the kind of preferred body type), so you are asking a sacrifice to a 9-12 year old that in most sports is not required until 13-18 or whatever, at an age where many things are decided for them by their parents instead of by them.
- pnw_hazor 7y ago
  One thing to keep in mind is that in dance, gymnastics, or figure skating non-competitive kids/families are usually identified early and then directed into recreational programs. By 12 YO most girls are in the recreational tracks rather than competitive or pre-professional tracks. Also, by 12 years old, the kids are motivating themselves. If the parents are pushing them at this point, they will soon quit or move to recreational programs. The amount of training or practice time is relatively minor for kids until they hit 12+ years old. And, then it is just the few the that remain in competitive/pre-professionsal programs that ramp up the training intensity. While some families with money do over train kids when they are little, it really isn't much of an advantage because physical/natural talent begins to separate kids around 10-12 years old such that the excess early training during ages 5-9 is washed out. Thus, a 7 year old that is taking 5 lessons a week will excel as compared to most other 7-10 year olds that are taking 1 or 2 lessons per week. But if kids join the competitive ranks everyone is taking 3-4-5 lessons per week and the early lessons don't make that much difference anymore because anyone who is competitive will have caught up. Ballet training has a similar split, where kids at a certain age/level are invited to the academy/pre-professional divisions that require 3-4+ classes a week. Otherwise, they drop into recreational dance (which can still be grueling but it is not on a professional track). Source: My daughter was a competitive figure skater. She also competed in rhythmic gymnastics until it interfered too much with figure skating. Her training included a serious amount of ballet, she did a year or two of pointe before moving away from ballet. She turned to Chinese dance after turning down an invitation to join her ballet school academy/pre-professional division. My daughter retired from competitive skating in her junior year of high school. She kept up the Chinese dance and did track and field until she went to West Point (USMA). It was an awesome ride while it lasted. Expensive, time consuming, but very much worth it. However, I could never recommend artistic gymnastics except for little kids. It causes way too many injuries and requires too much gym time. I can't remember the levels - but as soon as the full height balance beam comes into play it is time to switch to recreational or move on. In our case, that is when we switched our daughter to Rhythmic. Note, my son was doing little league baseball and basketball in elementary school, and then select teams in middle school, select and varsity in HS. He had more injuries than my daughter (some severe ankle sprains in high school).

bitwize 7y ago

My girlfriend trained in ballet throughout her childhood and teenage years -- like so many other girls she wanted to be a ballerina. Today she has a hammer toe, her ankles are shot, and she needs a hip replacement. Still the most fun girl to dance with, though, when she can manage the pain.