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European governments should respond in kind. The United States must not be allowed to get away with such domineering tactics.

by ansn 7y ago

makomk 7y ago
Germany was one of the first countries to ban mask exports to the rest of the world, including to other European countries like Italy during the depths of their coronavirus crisis when the healthcare system there was collapsing. They were eventually strong-armed into sharing their masks within the EU, but even that took a long time to convince them to do. This was particularly bad because they're one of the main manufacturers of N95 masks in Europe. In a sense, this is an example of the US responding in kind to something that Europe has already done.
- rasz 7y ago
  Dont know about manufacturing, but 3M European distribution center in in DE, so banning exports meant confiscating whole European 3M inventory.
  - funcDropShadow 7y ago
    And then ban was lifted shortly afterwards.
- wcoenen 7y ago
  For what it's worth, Germany is currently taking patients from Italy[1] and sending ventilators to Spain[2] to help them out. I think it just took some time to go from "scrambling to prepare" to cooperation between EU countries. [1] https://dw.com/en/coronavirus-treating-european-patients-in-germany/a-52943695 https://dw.com/en/coronavirus-treating-european-patients-in-... [2] https://www.efe.com/efe/english/portada/berlin-sends-ventilators-to-spain-taking-in-patients-from-italy-france/50000260-4212884# https://www.efe.com/efe/english/portada/berlin-sends-ventila...
  - mercer 7y ago
    It remains to be seen whether such gestures are just PR though.
    - Pedrit0 7y ago
      I think that the French and Italian patients being taken in charge by the German hospital won't give a f* that it is PR or not. They just want to survive and they sure will remember the german hand. Europe is a land of memory. We will not forget either the US actions.
      - mercer 7y ago
        Jesus Christ, what makes you assume I don't care that it's good for the patients? That's entire beside the point. If Germany does <x> that does good for a handful of Italians, but <y> that causes damage to many more, surely you'd agree that at the very least it's worth questioning whether <x> is a PR move? But reasonably we could even discuss it without diminishing how <x> might've really helped? I mean, seriously, Jesus Fucking Christ. Should we have avoided discussing Hitler's problematic policies re: the Jews because he gave a bum a dime once? EDIT: predicting the response to be 'how dare you compare this to Hitler!?'. Is everything just aesthetics nowadays?
        Pedrit0 7y ago
        Am not sure this 'Jesus Christ' you invoke in your answer would like your words and your logic...
  - BrandoElFollito 7y ago
    Also taking patients from France (we are grateful)
- hatenberg 7y ago
  The US intercepted a shipment in Thailand and tried the same in Singapore. That is a very different level than an export ban. There will be hell to pay when this is over
  - adventured 7y ago
    There sure will be. Europe spread the virus to the rest of the world, acting as the seed infection for half the planet. This was because of their incompetent and slow response time, poor crisis preparation (including health officials in the EU declaring there was nothing to worry about in February, stating that they were well prepared), and failure to properly lock down travel even while the virus was beginning to rampage in Italy. "Coronavirus Started in China, but Europe Became the Hub for Its Global Spread" https://theintercept.com/2020/04/02/coronavirus-europe-travel/ https://theintercept.com/2020/04/02/coronavirus-europe-trave...
    - amf12 7y ago
      > Europe spread the virus to the rest of the world, acting as the seed infection for half the planet. This was because of their incompetent and slow response time, poor crisis preparation Well why didn't the US* demonstrate competence by showing fast response times, strong crisis management (including the President in the US declaring there was nothing to worry about in March, stating that they were well prepared)? - The US could have stopped travel earlier before even getting its first case. - The US could have prepared by procuring ventilators and masks before they needed them. - The US could have cautioned people about the virus rather than stating there is nothing to worry about (even when it had already spread to the US). In fact some of the European countries took strong measures as soon as shit hit the fan in Italy, whereas there are still states which are not asking people to stay at home. * I did not mention any other countries since you did not name them.
    - Pedrit0 7y ago
      This is past. The new hub is the US that is spreading it all over the American continent.
    - etiam 7y ago
- jojo2000 7y ago
  > In a sense, this is an example of the US responding in kind to something that Europe has already done. Is this meant to be funny ? /s Seems like a kiddy moral statement. Europe has done so many bad things in the past, but US currently has the lead ! This affair learns us some interesting things : 1) nation states are the current structure that defends people, a statement which was challenged by the creation of EU, and will try to protect their people before others. 2) Global trade cannot abolish the aforementioned statements. Pick your conclusion. Mine currently is : States have lost self-reliance based on global trade doctrine and this trend should be reversed. Chicago school has made enough ravages.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
    Based on the current actions, it would appear that moving away from global trade results in piracy ( and likely other unilateral actions ). If this moment teaches us anything, it is that globalization ( I hate myself for using this argument already ) is actually a net good for us as a human kind. So no, I believe your conclusion is incorrect. That trend should not be reversed as we need sufficiently interconnected world so that all interested parties think long and hard before they press the wrong button. MAD at its finest.
    - TechBro8615 7y ago
      If globalization is a net positive, does the same logic hold for centralization of internet services? Here at HN we are largely proponents of decentralization, arguing it leads to a stronger whole. And yet when speaking of geopolitics we seem to have a blindspot and the same logic does not apply. I wonder why this is.
      - A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
        It is a valid point, but I have no answer other that different type of systems may follow different types of rules ( as in, centralization may not be good for every system ).
- funcDropShadow 7y ago
  To be precise, it was never banned. It was regulated. So every export had to approved. And an export regulation is something different from seizing products outside the US, which were produced outside the US. It is also something different from rerouting ships to be able to seize their cargo.
simion314 7y ago
Can Europe do this? Trump could then respond by blocking Google,Microsoft and other software services to serve Europe. A trade war will have many consequences, hopefully more smarter politician or diplomats could solve this disagreements and also Europe should consider reducing dependencies on US for critical stuff.
- luckylion 7y ago
  > Can Europe do this? No. But it should recognize that it is currently a province in the US empire. If it wants to be sovereign, it should change that, if it doesn't, it should cut out their administrative overhead.
- adventured 7y ago
  Europe outside of Germany has no advanced industrial capabilities at all. They can choose to do anything they want to, however they have three major industrial options to choose from: Germany, the US, China. Germany can't make enough of anything to satisfy all of Europe's demand. That leaves having to deal with the US and China. The first thing Germany did was shift to self-preservation mode, abandon their EU and Eurozone partners, and lock down their exports. Germany has been able to hyper test their own population, while the rest of Europe was left running at low rates of testing, including Britain, France, Spain and Italy, along with all of Eastern Europe. This is partially why Italy's case mortality rate is now a shocking 12%, the Netherlands is 10%, the UK is 10%, Spain is near 10%, France is 8%, Belgium is 7%, Sweden is 6%. And these numbers keep getting worse. Mortality rates like this should never happen in developed nations (Canada's case mortality rate by contrast is a mere 1.5%, Germany is 1.4%). None of them are testing anywhere close to enough. People expect incompetence out of the US healthcare system, however Britain and France are supposed to be among the best in the world and they have completely failed (England's Deputy Chief Medical Officer just said yesterday that there's no need for the healthy general public to wear masks). The reason why even France and Britain can't test their own populations properly, despite months of lead time, is they have no industrial capabilities to match what Germany can do. Europe is largely left helpless and with the EU collapsing - there is no scenario where Italy and Spain will ever trust the EU again - the infighting and bickering is likely to continue indefinitely.
wil421 7y ago
To me it looks like Germany did this before the US even considered Covid-19 a real problem. Germany Faces Backlash From Neighbors Over Mask Export Ban[1]. > Since January, Taiwan, India and Thailand, all of which also make face masks, have banned their export, although, to help China, India later temporarily revoked its restriction. South Korea also banned the export of masks, as will Indonesia soon. Outside Asia, Russia, Germany and the Czech Republic also stopped exports in early March. So did Kenya, where the first case of coronavirus was confirmed on March 13.[2] [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-09/germany-faces-backlash-from-neighbors-over-mask-export-ban https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-09/germany-f... [2] http://theconversation.com/the-global-effort-to-tackle-the-coronavirus-face-mask-shortage-133656 http://theconversation.com/the-global-effort-to-tackle-the-c...
- Pedrit0 7y ago
  So, as some countries took measures to protect their stock (while the US did not care about preparing at that moment), it is normal now that the US hijack other nations shipment ?

European governments should respond in kind. The United States must not be allowed to get away with such domineering tactics.

by ansn 7y ago

European governments should respond in kind. The United States must not be allowed to get away with such domineering tactics.

makomk 7y ago

Germany was one of the first countries to ban mask exports to the rest of the world, including to other European countries like Italy during the depths of their coronavirus crisis when the healthcare system there was collapsing. They were eventually strong-armed into sharing their masks within the EU, but even that took a long time to convince them to do. This was particularly bad because they're one of the main manufacturers of N95 masks in Europe. In a sense, this is an example of the US responding in kind to something that Europe has already done.

rasz 7y ago
Dont know about manufacturing, but 3M European distribution center in in DE, so banning exports meant confiscating whole European 3M inventory.
- funcDropShadow 7y ago
  And then ban was lifted shortly afterwards.
wcoenen 7y ago
For what it's worth, Germany is currently taking patients from Italy[1] and sending ventilators to Spain[2] to help them out. I think it just took some time to go from "scrambling to prepare" to cooperation between EU countries. [1] https://dw.com/en/coronavirus-treating-european-patients-in-germany/a-52943695 https://dw.com/en/coronavirus-treating-european-patients-in-... [2] https://www.efe.com/efe/english/portada/berlin-sends-ventilators-to-spain-taking-in-patients-from-italy-france/50000260-4212884# https://www.efe.com/efe/english/portada/berlin-sends-ventila...
- mercer 7y ago
  It remains to be seen whether such gestures are just PR though.
  - Pedrit0 7y ago
    I think that the French and Italian patients being taken in charge by the German hospital won't give a f* that it is PR or not. They just want to survive and they sure will remember the german hand. Europe is a land of memory. We will not forget either the US actions.
    - mercer 7y ago
      Jesus Christ, what makes you assume I don't care that it's good for the patients? That's entire beside the point. If Germany does <x> that does good for a handful of Italians, but <y> that causes damage to many more, surely you'd agree that at the very least it's worth questioning whether <x> is a PR move? But reasonably we could even discuss it without diminishing how <x> might've really helped? I mean, seriously, Jesus Fucking Christ. Should we have avoided discussing Hitler's problematic policies re: the Jews because he gave a bum a dime once? EDIT: predicting the response to be 'how dare you compare this to Hitler!?'. Is everything just aesthetics nowadays?
      - Pedrit0 7y ago
        Am not sure this 'Jesus Christ' you invoke in your answer would like your words and your logic...
- BrandoElFollito 7y ago
  Also taking patients from France (we are grateful)
hatenberg 7y ago
The US intercepted a shipment in Thailand and tried the same in Singapore. That is a very different level than an export ban. There will be hell to pay when this is over
- adventured 7y ago
  There sure will be. Europe spread the virus to the rest of the world, acting as the seed infection for half the planet. This was because of their incompetent and slow response time, poor crisis preparation (including health officials in the EU declaring there was nothing to worry about in February, stating that they were well prepared), and failure to properly lock down travel even while the virus was beginning to rampage in Italy. "Coronavirus Started in China, but Europe Became the Hub for Its Global Spread" https://theintercept.com/2020/04/02/coronavirus-europe-travel/ https://theintercept.com/2020/04/02/coronavirus-europe-trave...
  - amf12 7y ago
    > Europe spread the virus to the rest of the world, acting as the seed infection for half the planet. This was because of their incompetent and slow response time, poor crisis preparation Well why didn't the US* demonstrate competence by showing fast response times, strong crisis management (including the President in the US declaring there was nothing to worry about in March, stating that they were well prepared)? - The US could have stopped travel earlier before even getting its first case. - The US could have prepared by procuring ventilators and masks before they needed them. - The US could have cautioned people about the virus rather than stating there is nothing to worry about (even when it had already spread to the US). In fact some of the European countries took strong measures as soon as shit hit the fan in Italy, whereas there are still states which are not asking people to stay at home. * I did not mention any other countries since you did not name them.
  - Pedrit0 7y ago
    This is past. The new hub is the US that is spreading it all over the American continent.
  - etiam 7y ago
jojo2000 7y ago
> In a sense, this is an example of the US responding in kind to something that Europe has already done. Is this meant to be funny ? /s Seems like a kiddy moral statement. Europe has done so many bad things in the past, but US currently has the lead ! This affair learns us some interesting things : 1) nation states are the current structure that defends people, a statement which was challenged by the creation of EU, and will try to protect their people before others. 2) Global trade cannot abolish the aforementioned statements. Pick your conclusion. Mine currently is : States have lost self-reliance based on global trade doctrine and this trend should be reversed. Chicago school has made enough ravages.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
  Based on the current actions, it would appear that moving away from global trade results in piracy ( and likely other unilateral actions ). If this moment teaches us anything, it is that globalization ( I hate myself for using this argument already ) is actually a net good for us as a human kind. So no, I believe your conclusion is incorrect. That trend should not be reversed as we need sufficiently interconnected world so that all interested parties think long and hard before they press the wrong button. MAD at its finest.
  - TechBro8615 7y ago
    If globalization is a net positive, does the same logic hold for centralization of internet services? Here at HN we are largely proponents of decentralization, arguing it leads to a stronger whole. And yet when speaking of geopolitics we seem to have a blindspot and the same logic does not apply. I wonder why this is.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
      It is a valid point, but I have no answer other that different type of systems may follow different types of rules ( as in, centralization may not be good for every system ).
funcDropShadow 7y ago
To be precise, it was never banned. It was regulated. So every export had to approved. And an export regulation is something different from seizing products outside the US, which were produced outside the US. It is also something different from rerouting ships to be able to seize their cargo.

simion314 7y ago

Can Europe do this? Trump could then respond by blocking Google,Microsoft and other software services to serve Europe. A trade war will have many consequences, hopefully more smarter politician or diplomats could solve this disagreements and also Europe should consider reducing dependencies on US for critical stuff.

luckylion 7y ago
> Can Europe do this? No. But it should recognize that it is currently a province in the US empire. If it wants to be sovereign, it should change that, if it doesn't, it should cut out their administrative overhead.
adventured 7y ago
Europe outside of Germany has no advanced industrial capabilities at all. They can choose to do anything they want to, however they have three major industrial options to choose from: Germany, the US, China. Germany can't make enough of anything to satisfy all of Europe's demand. That leaves having to deal with the US and China. The first thing Germany did was shift to self-preservation mode, abandon their EU and Eurozone partners, and lock down their exports. Germany has been able to hyper test their own population, while the rest of Europe was left running at low rates of testing, including Britain, France, Spain and Italy, along with all of Eastern Europe. This is partially why Italy's case mortality rate is now a shocking 12%, the Netherlands is 10%, the UK is 10%, Spain is near 10%, France is 8%, Belgium is 7%, Sweden is 6%. And these numbers keep getting worse. Mortality rates like this should never happen in developed nations (Canada's case mortality rate by contrast is a mere 1.5%, Germany is 1.4%). None of them are testing anywhere close to enough. People expect incompetence out of the US healthcare system, however Britain and France are supposed to be among the best in the world and they have completely failed (England's Deputy Chief Medical Officer just said yesterday that there's no need for the healthy general public to wear masks). The reason why even France and Britain can't test their own populations properly, despite months of lead time, is they have no industrial capabilities to match what Germany can do. Europe is largely left helpless and with the EU collapsing - there is no scenario where Italy and Spain will ever trust the EU again - the infighting and bickering is likely to continue indefinitely.

wil421 7y ago

To me it looks like Germany did this before the US even considered Covid-19 a real problem. Germany Faces Backlash From Neighbors Over Mask Export Ban[1]. > Since January, Taiwan, India and Thailand, all of which also make face masks, have banned their export, although, to help China, India later temporarily revoked its restriction. South Korea also banned the export of masks, as will Indonesia soon. Outside Asia, Russia, Germany and the Czech Republic also stopped exports in early March. So did Kenya, where the first case of coronavirus was confirmed on March 13.[2] [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-09/germany-faces-backlash-from-neighbors-over-mask-export-ban https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-09/germany-f... [2] http://theconversation.com/the-global-effort-to-tackle-the-coronavirus-face-mask-shortage-133656 http://theconversation.com/the-global-effort-to-tackle-the-c...

Pedrit0 7y ago
So, as some countries took measures to protect their stock (while the US did not care about preparing at that moment), it is normal now that the US hijack other nations shipment ?