8 ms·

US accused of ‘piracy’ over mask ‘confiscation’

45 points by etiam 7y ago

etiam 7y ago
Reposted, as https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22776775 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22776775 by https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=madaxe_again https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=madaxe_again appears to have been killed over a mistaken URL.
m0zg 7y ago
Desperate times, desperate measures. Had Trump not done this, the press would pan him for "not using the DPA" instead, like they did last week.
- hurricanetc 7y ago
  If he had actually used the DPA last week this wouldn’t have happened. This shipment had already left the US and was in Bangkok. And if he had used the DPA in January we wouldn’t be in this situation in the first place.
  - makomk 7y ago
    If Europe - which is, as you may recall, not led by Trump - had expanded their N95 mask production capacity back in January we wouldn't be in this situation in the first place. Continental Europe is at least as capable of doing so as the US, if not more so (one of the main global manufacturers of the specialist melt-blowing machines required to make the filtering material in them is based there). The main problem is that it just doesn't seem to be possible to increase N95 production capacity enough within the timescale necessary, no matter what Trump or anyone else orders companies to do. (Trump could obviously also have used the DPA to ban mask exports back in January, but that'd just have screwed the rest of the world - including countries which, frankly, were in more desperate and immediate need of them back then - in an even more spectacular and counter-productive fashion. It was in the US's direct interest to reduce the spread of coronavirus in other countries back then.)
  - m0zg 7y ago
    What would he do that for? If you recall, in January _zero_ people other than the president gave any shit about the virus. We didn't have any cases until something like January 19. 3 days later they formed the working group, and on Jan 31 they closed flights with China (Biden and liberal media called the move "racist"). To remind you at the time everyone was busy with third attempt at "investigation" and impeachment. Invoking DPA would be a bit "interesting" under those circumstances, and the dems would howl that he's "authoritarian", just like they are beginning to howl about it now, when there's end in sight for this. Do I need to show you the headlines and clips from end of January to lengthen your attention span? Pelosi handing out pens and inviting people to Chinatown? DeBlasio telling people to ignore coronavirus? Every single liberal media outlet saying Trump is overreacting and this is no worse than a flu?
ansn 7y ago
European governments should respond in kind. The United States must not be allowed to get away with such domineering tactics.
- makomk 7y ago
  Germany was one of the first countries to ban mask exports to the rest of the world, including to other European countries like Italy during the depths of their coronavirus crisis when the healthcare system there was collapsing. They were eventually strong-armed into sharing their masks within the EU, but even that took a long time to convince them to do. This was particularly bad because they're one of the main manufacturers of N95 masks in Europe. In a sense, this is an example of the US responding in kind to something that Europe has already done.
  - rasz 7y ago
    Dont know about manufacturing, but 3M European distribution center in in DE, so banning exports meant confiscating whole European 3M inventory.
    - funcDropShadow 7y ago
      And then ban was lifted shortly afterwards.
  - wcoenen 7y ago
    For what it's worth, Germany is currently taking patients from Italy[1] and sending ventilators to Spain[2] to help them out. I think it just took some time to go from "scrambling to prepare" to cooperation between EU countries. [1] https://dw.com/en/coronavirus-treating-european-patients-in-germany/a-52943695 https://dw.com/en/coronavirus-treating-european-patients-in-... [2] https://www.efe.com/efe/english/portada/berlin-sends-ventilators-to-spain-taking-in-patients-from-italy-france/50000260-4212884# https://www.efe.com/efe/english/portada/berlin-sends-ventila...
    - mercer 7y ago
KozmoNau7 7y ago
Old alliances are fragile and will be broken in times of desperation. To throw your allies under the bus like this will not be forgotten. I hope that one consequence of these and similar action during this crisis will be an end to the global JIT production strategy and spur more decentralized and local production. Why are we in Europe dependent on a US company with production in the far east, for critical medical supplies?
- makomk 7y ago
  Like every country on the planet, you need far more N95 masks than usual right now, and there is literally not enough manufacturing capacity on the entire planet. Europe and especially Germany banned exports and blocked shipping of existing orders a while back, but because the US hadn't done so yet you could get away with siphoning off the US supply whilst banning them from doing the same to you.
  - KozmoNau7 7y ago
    Instead of making this another US vs Europe "we did/but they did" slapfight, try reading my post again. EU countries instituted export regulations from their own countries, they didn't ban exports, they wanted to at least regulate how much left the country. The US intercepted already agreed upon shipments, by swooping in and offering a much higher payment and strong-arming companies like 3M. The blame lies both with the US government and the manufacturers ignoring existing deals and agreements in favor of cold profit. And the US government also deserves blame for not recognizing the threat earlier, which they are now using as an excuse to screw over the rest of the world. Again. Another important point is that companies like 3M are US based, adding yet another imbalance of power in this relationship. However, my main point is why do we accept this fragile global JIT supply chain? We are we relying on essential products having to be shipped across the globe?
econcon 7y ago
Trumph is proving to be strong leader. It's weird.
- exitheone 7y ago
  Only if you consider throwing away the trust of every single partner they have is a good leadership move.
- dicknuckle 7y ago
  Strength through underhanded tactics is not strength. He's covering up his incompetence.
agustif 7y ago
Turkey just did a similar thing to Spain with 150 ventilators. source: https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-04-03/turquia-retiene-un-cargamento-de-respiradores-para-espana.html https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-04-03/turquia-retiene-un-ca...
- agustif 7y ago
  I can't edit my parent post, but Turkey thankfully did let the respirators pass through customs today. Even if they were build in turkey by a turkish company, the sell to Spain was before Turkey implemented the no-medical-export-ban so after some diplomacy calls they let it through I guess (hopefully we can send them back to others in need when they need it)
Pedrit0 7y ago
A more complete article on this topic: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/03/mask-wars-coronavirus-outbidding-demand https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/03/mask-wars-coro...
- justin66 7y ago
  Still not terribly clear what happened. A journalist would want to talk to the shipper or the buyer of the masks, since 3M is disavowing any knowledge, and the German police just know they did not get their masks. One thing is interesting: maybe 3M really don't know everything their suppliers are doing right now in China. About 200,000 N95 masks were diverted to the US as they were being transferred between planes in Thailand, according to the Berlin authorities who said they had ordered the masks for the police force.
  - Pedrit0 7y ago
    France, Germany, Canada, and even US states/counties had to complain about this "dumping" from the federal US administration and also from american private buyers. The topic is getting inflamatory in Europe.
Pedrit0 7y ago
LOL. I have seen 3 or 4 news about that in HN these last days and I personally submitted 2 more on this topic. Believe it or not, these news did not prompt many reactions from US HN commenters who usually have much to say on any topic :-)
- yardie 7y ago
  It’s 8AM EDT. Most HNers aren’t even up this early. Also, with the president’s multiple lies per day the media is barely covering it.
- sykick 7y ago
  I can only speak for myself but what is there left to comment on? I have outrage fatigue. Trump goes from one incredible gaff/goof/statement to another. The list of his incompetence, arrogance, lies, and stupidity is quite large. It does not surprise me in the least that this latest selfish, short-sighted move was made. His supporters are incapable of critiquing him. They are impervious to logic and reason. I no longer care to hear about his crimes and incompetence. I no longer care what he does. He is the President the United States deserves. In response to having elected the most incompetent, corrupt, and stupid President in history the opposition party is going to nominate a senile dinosaur who has no desire to upend the corporate dominance of our elected officials.
hatenberg 7y ago
He is handling the problem created by his lack of preparation like he handles his pornstar problems. With money and bullying. Nevermind that end of February the government still sold off particle respirators and masks to the highest bidder. The only good news here is that after this is over many other western countries will finally get over the idea that the US is their friend and take a much needed pragmatic approach - especially when it comes to the sourcing of telco equipment.
- danielrpa 7y ago
  The current administration speaks for the country right now, but doesn't set an eternal policy that determines the United States' thinking towards its partners or erases the decades of strong alliances from the past. Actually this is the beauty of democracy, eventually we will change this - many of us Americans aren't happy with the way our country is treating our historical friends in Europe and elsewhere. It's important that democracies stay united through this crisis, and especially after this crisis. There is nothing China and Russia would like more than long term friction in the Free World alliances.
  - mercer 7y ago
    > The current administration speaks for the country right now, but doesn't set an eternal policy that determines the United States' thinking towards its partners or erases the decades of strong alliances from the past. I'm curious how that works, though. On the one hand, I can imagine that other countries might look back on all this (Trump) as a momentary 'lapse' in sanity, but honestly I suspect country-level memory lasts longer than that. If this kind of thing happens once, it can happen again, no? It might say something about the quality and stability of a country's 'institutional continuity', or whatever proper term one might use for it. Can anyone here who knows more about these topics chime in, perhaps? I know very little, but have been thinking about this quite a bit. How does one 'bad administration' (regardless of whether Trump's is or isn't) affect ongoing relationships between countries? How far back does a country's memory go? Is there any kind of pattern to it, or does it depend entirely on the particulars of said country?
  - 7y ago
wegs 7y ago
This story is a little bit one-sided. If you read right-wing media, you'll get stories one-sided in the other direction. States in the US had placed orders for masks, in some cases more than a month ago, and have not received them even after having paid for them. They were getting outbid after having a contract in place, and companies (including 3M distributors) weren't honoring orders after higher-grossing orders came in. Florida-bound masks were being diverted to other countries. A whole bunch of countries had already stopped exports of medical equipment. The US was getting outbid on exports AND couldn't import, so was getting stripped of medical equipment. This was a response. Was it a thoughtful, reasoned, reasonable response? No. But some sort of rapid response was needed since there was a flood of equipment out of the US. There are also many disappearing orders in different ports, where shipments apparently just vanish in a poof of smoke. It's not clear who is to blame (but usually everyone assumes it is the US, with no clear evidence). I'm not sure where this is going, but we're seeing escalation on many different sides. We want a deescalation. I'm not sure how to get to there from here. Without deescalation, these are the sorts of things which tend to escalate to war.
Carpetsmoker 7y ago
Considering that Trump wants to keep manufacturing in the US (big issue during the campaign, no comment on whether this is a good or bad policy), this seems rather unwise in the long run. Basically he's showing that the US is an unreliable partner. I know these are exceptional circumstances, but there may be other exceptional circumstances in a few years time. I would think twice before establishing my manufacturing plants in the US.
- funcDropShadow 7y ago
  He is constantly showing Europe that the US is an unreliable partner. I believe after the acute phase of the Corona crisis, US European will have changed forever. Russia and China are sending supplies and medical teams not only to their allies but also to lot's of African and European countries. Whereas the US does the exact opposite. Who do you think will have more influence on the world in the coming years?
aaron695 7y ago
France did this to the UK https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8137039/French-border-guards-impound-trucks-filled-130-000-face-masks-bound-Britain.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8137039/French-bord... USA did this to France - US buyers waving wads of cash managed to wrest control of a consignment of masks as it was about to be dispatched from China to one of the worst-hit coronavirus areas of France, according to two French officials. The masks were on a plane at Shanghai airport that was ready to take off when the US buyers turned up and offered three times what their French counterparts were paying. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/02/global-battle-coronavirus-equipment-masks-tests https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/02/global-battle-... Lots of stories in the new wild west over bits of paper that should cost nothing.
- Pedrit0 7y ago
  Except the French story is pure fake as the masks were all delivered to UK. As Macron passed the law on the ban for mask export, the cops had to block the truck. Then UK and France administrations called each other and the truck was released almost immediatly. Non-story. Daily Mail.

45 points by etiam 7y ago

Reposted, as https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22776775 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22776775 by https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=madaxe_again https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=madaxe_again appears to have been killed over a mistaken URL.

m0zg 7y ago

Desperate times, desperate measures. Had Trump not done this, the press would pan him for "not using the DPA" instead, like they did last week.

hurricanetc 7y ago
If he had actually used the DPA last week this wouldn’t have happened. This shipment had already left the US and was in Bangkok. And if he had used the DPA in January we wouldn’t be in this situation in the first place.
- makomk 7y ago
  If Europe - which is, as you may recall, not led by Trump - had expanded their N95 mask production capacity back in January we wouldn't be in this situation in the first place. Continental Europe is at least as capable of doing so as the US, if not more so (one of the main global manufacturers of the specialist melt-blowing machines required to make the filtering material in them is based there). The main problem is that it just doesn't seem to be possible to increase N95 production capacity enough within the timescale necessary, no matter what Trump or anyone else orders companies to do. (Trump could obviously also have used the DPA to ban mask exports back in January, but that'd just have screwed the rest of the world - including countries which, frankly, were in more desperate and immediate need of them back then - in an even more spectacular and counter-productive fashion. It was in the US's direct interest to reduce the spread of coronavirus in other countries back then.)
- m0zg 7y ago
  What would he do that for? If you recall, in January _zero_ people other than the president gave any shit about the virus. We didn't have any cases until something like January 19. 3 days later they formed the working group, and on Jan 31 they closed flights with China (Biden and liberal media called the move "racist"). To remind you at the time everyone was busy with third attempt at "investigation" and impeachment. Invoking DPA would be a bit "interesting" under those circumstances, and the dems would howl that he's "authoritarian", just like they are beginning to howl about it now, when there's end in sight for this. Do I need to show you the headlines and clips from end of January to lengthen your attention span? Pelosi handing out pens and inviting people to Chinatown? DeBlasio telling people to ignore coronavirus? Every single liberal media outlet saying Trump is overreacting and this is no worse than a flu?

ansn 7y ago

European governments should respond in kind. The United States must not be allowed to get away with such domineering tactics.

makomk 7y ago
Germany was one of the first countries to ban mask exports to the rest of the world, including to other European countries like Italy during the depths of their coronavirus crisis when the healthcare system there was collapsing. They were eventually strong-armed into sharing their masks within the EU, but even that took a long time to convince them to do. This was particularly bad because they're one of the main manufacturers of N95 masks in Europe. In a sense, this is an example of the US responding in kind to something that Europe has already done.
- rasz 7y ago
  Dont know about manufacturing, but 3M European distribution center in in DE, so banning exports meant confiscating whole European 3M inventory.
  - funcDropShadow 7y ago
    And then ban was lifted shortly afterwards.
- wcoenen 7y ago
  For what it's worth, Germany is currently taking patients from Italy[1] and sending ventilators to Spain[2] to help them out. I think it just took some time to go from "scrambling to prepare" to cooperation between EU countries. [1] https://dw.com/en/coronavirus-treating-european-patients-in-germany/a-52943695 https://dw.com/en/coronavirus-treating-european-patients-in-... [2] https://www.efe.com/efe/english/portada/berlin-sends-ventilators-to-spain-taking-in-patients-from-italy-france/50000260-4212884# https://www.efe.com/efe/english/portada/berlin-sends-ventila...
  - mercer 7y ago

KozmoNau7 7y ago

Old alliances are fragile and will be broken in times of desperation. To throw your allies under the bus like this will not be forgotten. I hope that one consequence of these and similar action during this crisis will be an end to the global JIT production strategy and spur more decentralized and local production. Why are we in Europe dependent on a US company with production in the far east, for critical medical supplies?

makomk 7y ago
Like every country on the planet, you need far more N95 masks than usual right now, and there is literally not enough manufacturing capacity on the entire planet. Europe and especially Germany banned exports and blocked shipping of existing orders a while back, but because the US hadn't done so yet you could get away with siphoning off the US supply whilst banning them from doing the same to you.
- KozmoNau7 7y ago
  Instead of making this another US vs Europe "we did/but they did" slapfight, try reading my post again. EU countries instituted export regulations from their own countries, they didn't ban exports, they wanted to at least regulate how much left the country. The US intercepted already agreed upon shipments, by swooping in and offering a much higher payment and strong-arming companies like 3M. The blame lies both with the US government and the manufacturers ignoring existing deals and agreements in favor of cold profit. And the US government also deserves blame for not recognizing the threat earlier, which they are now using as an excuse to screw over the rest of the world. Again. Another important point is that companies like 3M are US based, adding yet another imbalance of power in this relationship. However, my main point is why do we accept this fragile global JIT supply chain? We are we relying on essential products having to be shipped across the globe?

econcon 7y ago

Trumph is proving to be strong leader. It's weird.

exitheone 7y ago
Only if you consider throwing away the trust of every single partner they have is a good leadership move.
dicknuckle 7y ago
Strength through underhanded tactics is not strength. He's covering up his incompetence.

agustif 7y ago

Turkey just did a similar thing to Spain with 150 ventilators. source: https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-04-03/turquia-retiene-un-cargamento-de-respiradores-para-espana.html https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-04-03/turquia-retiene-un-ca...

agustif 7y ago
I can't edit my parent post, but Turkey thankfully did let the respirators pass through customs today. Even if they were build in turkey by a turkish company, the sell to Spain was before Turkey implemented the no-medical-export-ban so after some diplomacy calls they let it through I guess (hopefully we can send them back to others in need when they need it)

Pedrit0 7y ago

A more complete article on this topic: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/03/mask-wars-coronavirus-outbidding-demand https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/03/mask-wars-coro...

justin66 7y ago
Still not terribly clear what happened. A journalist would want to talk to the shipper or the buyer of the masks, since 3M is disavowing any knowledge, and the German police just know they did not get their masks. One thing is interesting: maybe 3M really don't know everything their suppliers are doing right now in China. About 200,000 N95 masks were diverted to the US as they were being transferred between planes in Thailand, according to the Berlin authorities who said they had ordered the masks for the police force.
- Pedrit0 7y ago
  France, Germany, Canada, and even US states/counties had to complain about this "dumping" from the federal US administration and also from american private buyers. The topic is getting inflamatory in Europe.

Pedrit0 7y ago

LOL. I have seen 3 or 4 news about that in HN these last days and I personally submitted 2 more on this topic. Believe it or not, these news did not prompt many reactions from US HN commenters who usually have much to say on any topic :-)

yardie 7y ago
It’s 8AM EDT. Most HNers aren’t even up this early. Also, with the president’s multiple lies per day the media is barely covering it.
sykick 7y ago
I can only speak for myself but what is there left to comment on? I have outrage fatigue. Trump goes from one incredible gaff/goof/statement to another. The list of his incompetence, arrogance, lies, and stupidity is quite large. It does not surprise me in the least that this latest selfish, short-sighted move was made. His supporters are incapable of critiquing him. They are impervious to logic and reason. I no longer care to hear about his crimes and incompetence. I no longer care what he does. He is the President the United States deserves. In response to having elected the most incompetent, corrupt, and stupid President in history the opposition party is going to nominate a senile dinosaur who has no desire to upend the corporate dominance of our elected officials.

hatenberg 7y ago

He is handling the problem created by his lack of preparation like he handles his pornstar problems. With money and bullying. Nevermind that end of February the government still sold off particle respirators and masks to the highest bidder. The only good news here is that after this is over many other western countries will finally get over the idea that the US is their friend and take a much needed pragmatic approach - especially when it comes to the sourcing of telco equipment.

danielrpa 7y ago
The current administration speaks for the country right now, but doesn't set an eternal policy that determines the United States' thinking towards its partners or erases the decades of strong alliances from the past. Actually this is the beauty of democracy, eventually we will change this - many of us Americans aren't happy with the way our country is treating our historical friends in Europe and elsewhere. It's important that democracies stay united through this crisis, and especially after this crisis. There is nothing China and Russia would like more than long term friction in the Free World alliances.
- mercer 7y ago
  > The current administration speaks for the country right now, but doesn't set an eternal policy that determines the United States' thinking towards its partners or erases the decades of strong alliances from the past. I'm curious how that works, though. On the one hand, I can imagine that other countries might look back on all this (Trump) as a momentary 'lapse' in sanity, but honestly I suspect country-level memory lasts longer than that. If this kind of thing happens once, it can happen again, no? It might say something about the quality and stability of a country's 'institutional continuity', or whatever proper term one might use for it. Can anyone here who knows more about these topics chime in, perhaps? I know very little, but have been thinking about this quite a bit. How does one 'bad administration' (regardless of whether Trump's is or isn't) affect ongoing relationships between countries? How far back does a country's memory go? Is there any kind of pattern to it, or does it depend entirely on the particulars of said country?
- 7y ago

wegs 7y ago

This story is a little bit one-sided. If you read right-wing media, you'll get stories one-sided in the other direction. States in the US had placed orders for masks, in some cases more than a month ago, and have not received them even after having paid for them. They were getting outbid after having a contract in place, and companies (including 3M distributors) weren't honoring orders after higher-grossing orders came in. Florida-bound masks were being diverted to other countries. A whole bunch of countries had already stopped exports of medical equipment. The US was getting outbid on exports AND couldn't import, so was getting stripped of medical equipment. This was a response. Was it a thoughtful, reasoned, reasonable response? No. But some sort of rapid response was needed since there was a flood of equipment out of the US. There are also many disappearing orders in different ports, where shipments apparently just vanish in a poof of smoke. It's not clear who is to blame (but usually everyone assumes it is the US, with no clear evidence). I'm not sure where this is going, but we're seeing escalation on many different sides. We want a deescalation. I'm not sure how to get to there from here. Without deescalation, these are the sorts of things which tend to escalate to war.

Carpetsmoker 7y ago

Considering that Trump wants to keep manufacturing in the US (big issue during the campaign, no comment on whether this is a good or bad policy), this seems rather unwise in the long run. Basically he's showing that the US is an unreliable partner. I know these are exceptional circumstances, but there may be other exceptional circumstances in a few years time. I would think twice before establishing my manufacturing plants in the US.

funcDropShadow 7y ago
He is constantly showing Europe that the US is an unreliable partner. I believe after the acute phase of the Corona crisis, US European will have changed forever. Russia and China are sending supplies and medical teams not only to their allies but also to lot's of African and European countries. Whereas the US does the exact opposite. Who do you think will have more influence on the world in the coming years?

aaron695 7y ago

France did this to the UK https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8137039/French-border-guards-impound-trucks-filled-130-000-face-masks-bound-Britain.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8137039/French-bord... USA did this to France - US buyers waving wads of cash managed to wrest control of a consignment of masks as it was about to be dispatched from China to one of the worst-hit coronavirus areas of France, according to two French officials. The masks were on a plane at Shanghai airport that was ready to take off when the US buyers turned up and offered three times what their French counterparts were paying. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/02/global-battle-coronavirus-equipment-masks-tests https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/02/global-battle-... Lots of stories in the new wild west over bits of paper that should cost nothing.

Pedrit0 7y ago
Except the French story is pure fake as the masks were all delivered to UK. As Macron passed the law on the ban for mask export, the cops had to block the truck. Then UK and France administrations called each other and the truck was released almost immediatly. Non-story. Daily Mail.