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3M Response to Defense Production Act Order
- ceejayoz 7y ago> In addition, ceasing all export of respirators produced in the United States would likely cause other countries to retaliate and do the same, as some have already done. If that were to occur, the net number of respirators being made available to the United States would actually decrease. This is a very good point. We really don't want China cutting us off right now.
- RegnisGnaw 7y agoYou mean the 68 countries that already restrict the export of masks?
- animalnewbie 7y agohttps://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52092395 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52092395 https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3077428/netherlands-recalls-600000-face-masks-china-due-low-quality https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3077428/ne... Some claim the masks are deliberately faulty
- Analemma_ 7y ago"Factories are skipping QC and sacrificing quality in favor of volume, and also scammers are trying to cash in on the skyrocketing demand" is way more likely than "China is making deliberately faulty masks". Come on now.
- animalnewbie 7y agoYou haven't seen the videos maybe? People spitting in masks (in China, purportedly) and doorknobs and elevator (in Europe, purportedly). Not a proof and not directly related but I wouldn't put it past China. It shocks me when they claim they have 0 new corona virus cases. If they're lying about something as basic as this, what else are they lying about.
- belltaco 7y agoThere's been multiple people in the US coughing on lettuce, lick produce etc. Does that mean you wouldn't put it past America that masks exported to Canada will be laced with covid?
- perl4ever 7y agoIt's a meaningless thing to debate. To the extent coercion comes in to play, trust breaks down, so you can never know what's really going on. That's why bullies lose in the long run, but probably so does everyone.
- philliphaydon 7y agoOr China rubbing their feet on masks before packing them.
- AnthonyMouse 7y agoNegligence is more likely than malice, but the result is the same either way -- what good are masks that don't work?
- ceejayoz 7y agoWe're not doing much better. "Alabama county received 5,000 rotted masks from national stockpile": https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/491015-alabama-county-received-5000-rotted-masks-from-national-stockpile https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/491015-alabama-coun...
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago> This is a very good point. It's actually kind of a terrible point, because they're completely different countries. The ones who are trying to buy masks from the US aren't the ones selling them to the US. But export restrictions are also kind of silly. Why not just outbid the other guy for the masks? Then the higher price will bring more producers into the market faster, which is really the most important thing anyway.
- ceejayoz 7y ago> The ones who are trying to buy masks from the US aren't the ones selling them to the US. Not always true. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/31/pence-task-force-coronavirus-aid-157806 https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/31/pence-task-force-co... > Last week, a Trump administration official working to secure much-needed protective gear for doctors and nurses in the United States had a startling encounter with counterparts in Thailand. > The official asked the Thais for help—only to be informed by the puzzled voices on the other side of the line that a U.S. shipment of the same supplies, the second of two so far, was already on its way to Bangkok.
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago> The official asked the Thais for help—only to be informed by the puzzled voices on the other side of the line that a U.S. shipment of the same supplies, the second of two so far, was already on its way to Bangkok. ...and then they stopped sending them over there. If you already need more than you have, selling what you have is typically only done by mistake. Its the places that can make more than they need that are selling them.
- salawat 7y agoIt is also not their call or place to be worrying about international foreign policy/trade implications. That is explicitly the Federal Government's purview. Given the invocation of the DPA, which they may challenge in court if they wish; but as everyone is so fond of saying when the law appears to be on their side, "The law is the law." I don't see the courts even flinching on this point either. The President gave the order, the order is lawful. Just because you think it's a bad idea (and I sympathize), doesn't mean you just get to ignore it. Then again, I love me some Civil Disobedience (though now is really not the best time for it). Alternatively we can throw in the towel on the whole "nation of laws, not men" thing, and just let companies do what they want, but I'd rather not live in that cyberpunk dystopia waiting to happen. Though the irony of the moment does strike me as humorous. The overall credibility of the Federal apparatus is at such an all time low, we've got multi-nationals doing foreign policymaking for them. I don't know whether to laugh or weep.
- Simulacra 7y agoSince when has the People's Republic of China ever been a friend of America? I think it's the other way around. China REALLY doesn't want U.S. cutting them off right now, even when we probably should.
- ceejayoz 7y agoDon't let jingoism override reason. https://www.voanews.com/science-health/coronavirus-outbreak/world-depends-china-face-masks-can-country-deliver https://www.voanews.com/science-health/coronavirus-outbreak/... > China made half the world’s masks before the coronavirus emerged there. The government has been undertaking a massive mobilization of wartime proportions to expand its output since then. Daily production soared from about 10 million before the crisis to 116 million now, according to the latest number released late last month by China's National Development and Reform Commission.
- dang 7y agoPlease don't take HN threads further into nationalistic flamewar. We don't need that here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- NicoJuicy 7y agoOr Germany ;) They make the machines that make the masks. Also ventilators ( eg. Philips and many other European countries) And a big chance that the vaccine is coming from Europe as well
- jdkee 7y agoNationalize them.
- AnimalMuppet 7y agoBecause they're right, but in a way you don't want to hear, so you want to make it so they can't say the truth that you don't like? And what would "nationalizing" them look like, anyway? You realize that they're a multinational corporation, right? You could nationalize the US part, but you'd lose the rest of them. Even solely for purposes of the respirators, the result might not be better than what they're giving you now.
- jdkee 7y agoTell that to my wife who is going in to treat COVID patients in the ICU this Sunday. I’ll give you her phone number and you can leave her a voicemail explaining why exporting N95 masks while she can’t get one is OK.
- AnimalMuppet 7y agoI said your "solution" would not help. You responded with outrage about your wife. But if your solution won't help, then it won't help your wife. The best I can do is wish her the best. I'm sorry.
- rabbiterm 7y ago3M is in the right here
- loufe 7y agoForgive me but I don't feel like the article in any way actually states they refuse to honour the government's demand. What part of the article mentions that?
- throwaway_jobs 7y agoGovernment has signed an Act prohibiting 3M from exporting N95 masks from the US, what you read isn’t an article it is a 3M press release stating 3M will not comply with the Act and continue to export N95 masks
- ceejayoz 7y ago> it is a 3M press release stating 3M will not comply with the Act Where does this press release state that? It says the literal opposite: "We look forward to working with FEMA to implement yesterday’s order."
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- throwaway_jobs 7y agoThat is corporate speak for if you don’t allow 3M to export from The US to Canada then next time those 10M masks aren’t coming from 3M China to the US but 3M China direct to 3M Canada. Anyway there is a lot more information available as to what’s going on with Canadian orders and 3M Canada. Put it this way Canada has ordered 65M and 3M Canada and Canada both refuse to say how many 3M is providing in that order. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.com/amp/news/2020/04/03/3m-warns-of-white-house-order-to-stop-exporting-masks-to-canada-163060 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.com/amp/news/2020/...
- parsimo2010 7y agoBut it doesn’t say that.
- tssva 7y agoNo where in the linked statement does 3M say they will not comply. They point out potential issues that the order may cause but do not say they won't comply.
- xenospn 7y agoI was under the impression that the law's specific purpose was to make them comply, so they don't really have a choice.
- netllama 7y agoWhat's the actual penalty if they refuse?
- ceejayoz 7y agohttps://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/15/700.74 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/15/700.74 The maximum penalty provided by the Defense Production Act is a $10,000 fine, or one year in prison, or both. The government may also seek an injunction from a court of appropriate jurisdiction to prohibit the continuance of any violation of, or to enforce compliance with, the Defense Production Act, this part, or an official action.
- Mountain_Skies 7y agoBeyond that, removal of the CEO by the Board of Directors would be the most likely outcome. I haven't looked at who is on the Board but I'm betting most of them are susceptible to pressure from the government and the public.
- Simulacra 7y agoHrm... I wonder if the government would go so far as to arrest the CEO.
- milsorgen 7y ago
- psychlops 7y agoApparently, the US has the nice problem of a competing market whereby states and hospitals bid up the prices to that legally ambiguous area called "price gouging". I presume it's much simpler to avoid being accused of gouging and selling to countries which pay prices according to supply and demand.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- rdtsc 7y ago> We look forward to working closely with the Administration to implement yesterday’s DPA order. They will comply at least that’s what their letter further down says
- nacho2sweet 7y agoGoing to be hard to make those 3M masks when all the pulp used to make them is produced in Canada and we stop selling it to you cause you won't sell us masks. https://www.vancouverislandfreedaily.com/business/nanaimos-harmac-mill-works-to-fill-doubled-pulp-order-for-medical-masks-and-gowns/ https://www.vancouverislandfreedaily.com/business/nanaimos-h...
- RegnisGnaw 7y agoI'm pretty sure there's no pulp in the N95 respirators.
- slaman 7y agoI'm ill informed, do you have a source? Is it cotton or polymer?
- RegnisGnaw 7y agoHere's the document on the 3M N95 8210 which is a common N95 mask: https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1425070O/3m-particulate-respirator-8210-n95-technical-specifications.pdf https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1425070O/3m-particulate-... • Straps – Thermoplastic Elastomer • Nose Clip – Aluminum • Nose foam - Polyurethane • Filter – Polypropylene • Shell – Polyester • Coverweb - Polyester Here's the datasheet for the 3M 1860 N95 Surgical Respirator (for hospital and medical use): https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1538979O/3m-disposable-respirator-1860-1860s-technical-data-sheet.pdf https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1538979O/3m-disposable-r... * Straps: Braided Polyisoprene * Staples: Steel * Nose Clip: Aluminium * Nose Foam: Polyurethane Foam * Filter: Polypropylene/Polyester * Shell: Polypropylene * Coverweb: Polypropylene Here's another document from Honeywell stating the main material is "flexible non-woven polypropylene fabric" https://www.honeywell.com/en-us/newsroom/news/2020/03/n95-masks-explained https://www.honeywell.com/en-us/newsroom/news/2020/03/n95-ma... Here's the link to Wikipedia and I quote "The N95 mask requires a fine mesh of synthetic polymer fibers, also known as nonwoven polypropylene fabric,[5] which is produced through a highly specialized process called melt blowing that forms the inner filtration layer that filters out hazardous particles.[6]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N95_mask https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N95_mask
- sudoaza 7y agoSo the free market fails yet again and everyone is doing proteccionism, social programs and socializing necessary goods. Nice to see what really works.
- NicoJuicy 7y agoIt currently seems that the Trump administration is mostly causing the problems ( no suprise though) There are other minor ones, but healthcare in Europe+ Canada seem to be ok. Only a shortage of masks currently, where Trump is a blocker so exporting countries handle it case-by-case now. Eg. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-09/germany-faces-backlash-from-neighbors-over-mask-export-ban https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-09/germany-f... > We’re not categorically against exports but want to understand what happens, because previously it was so that masks went not where they were most needed but where most was paid.
- awinder 7y agoTitle should be “3M Response to Defense Production Act Order” and remember out there: only you can prevent title editorialization
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- dang 7y agoRight. Submitted title was "3M refuses US request to cease N95 respirator exports". A moderator changed it. Submitters who break the site guidelines by editorializing that badly eventually lose their submission rights on HN. So there's that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- RegnisGnaw 7y agoThe US won't be the first or the last to do this. I mean read the article below: 68 countries already ban the export of masks. https://globalnews.ca/news/6769162/canada-medical-supplies-coronavirus/ https://globalnews.ca/news/6769162/canada-medical-supplies-c... Here the EU has banned the export of masks unless the country's government approves (which is what Trump is doing) https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-eu-limit-exports-medical-equipment/ https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-eu-limit-exports... Also not mentioned Russia and Taiwan also banned all export of masks.
- NicoJuicy 7y agoThis is incomplete in many cases! Eg. From Germany : https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-09/germany-faces-backlash-from-neighbors-over-mask-export-ban https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-09/germany-f... > We’re not categorically against exports but want to understand what happens, because previously it was so that masks went not where they were most needed but where most was paid. They are literally handling the problems the US/Trump is causing right now. I expect more on HN
- netllama 7y agoThat's unfortunate, but it doesn't justify the behavior of the administration. There was a time when America did what was right, and acted as a beacon.
- NicoJuicy 7y agoPlease read my comment above, his comment is incomplete and I do think it's important :)
- Simulacra 7y agoOh boy, oh boy, oh boy! Here we go! Can't wait to see how this plays out.
- FpUser 7y agoSo much for friendship/partnership. I hope next time US asks Canada to participate in their never ending quests in middle east they'll get nice f.. you in return.
- Mountain_Skies 7y agoCanada should never participate in military action it feels is unwarranted, friends or not. If Canada has been going along with never ending quests just because the other countries involved are "friends", then it is morally bankrupt for doing so. In the end though, Canada and every other country in the world should realize that the United States doesn't have friends, it has interests.
- hourislate 7y agoI'm curious whether you have noticed the incredibly serious situation in NYC and New Orleans and many other areas of the USA. At the moment they have more people infected of Covid-19 in just NYC than Canada has people infected across the whole country. Almost 1900 dead in just NYC. Do you not feel this is serious enough of a situation that it requires all the masks this American company makes to be sent to these hot spots? Should the US not try to save its own citizens lives above trying to be friends with Canada or South America? Why doesn't Canada manufacture it's own masks?
- FpUser 7y agoSame reason US does not manufacture a basillion things they import from China. But yes Canada should learn to be more strategic.
- NicoJuicy 7y agoYour facts also coincide with weak leadership and very bad/recent decisions about reducing subsidies for health institutions (even cancelling a pandemic warning system that already identified strains of corona!) in favor of tax cuts for the already-rich. That is most definitely not the fault of Canada to handle it better than the US. Also, the chance that a non-American company will have a crucial piece of the puzzle for solving this is very big. Good luck with your short-term way of thinking if other countries will put US on the last place on the list. I expect more on HN
- mediamag 7y agoThe pulp that 3M uses to produce the n95 respirator is grown exclusively in British Columbia, CANADA and is milled by a company in Victoria, British Columbia, CANADA
- RegnisGnaw 7y agoI'm no expert, but I am sure the only pulp used in a N95 respirator is the box they put the 10 or 20 masks in. They can easily replace that with a bag.
- NicoJuicy 7y agoCorrect, you are not an expert
- RegnisGnaw 7y agoHere's the document on the 3M N95 8210 which is a common N95 mask: https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1425070O/3m-particulate-respirator-8210-n95-technical-specifications.pdf https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1425070O/3m-particulate-... • Straps – Thermoplastic Elastomer • Nose Clip – Aluminum • Nose foam - Polyurethane • Filter – Polypropylene • Shell – Polyester • Coverweb - Polyester Here's another document from Honeywell stating the main material is "flexible non-woven polypropylene fabric" https://www.honeywell.com/en-us/newsroom/news/2020/03/n95-masks-explained https://www.honeywell.com/en-us/newsroom/news/2020/03/n95-ma... Here's the link to Wikipedia and I quote "The N95 mask requires a fine mesh of synthetic polymer fibers, also known as nonwoven polypropylene fabric,[5] which is produced through a highly specialized process called melt blowing that forms the inner filtration layer that filters out hazardous particles.[6]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N95_mask https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N95_mask And you are an expert? Basic Google just backed me up.
- NicoJuicy 7y agoNo, i am not an expert and didn't made a single statement because of that. I don't know the answer. The only thing I do know is that a medical/surgical N95 mask is different from a standard N95 mask. This would be reason enough to undermine your claim, according to me. But as stated, I'm not an expert. A friend+client of mine in construction also has N95 masks and those are not valid for use in the hospital, he said. Also basic Google backed me up :) Ps. Thanks for trying to back up your claim with valid sources ;)!