5 ms·

Should the list of who upvotes an article be public? When I make a comment, my username is displayed. If upvotes and their timestamps were public, it would mak

Should the list of who upvotes an article be public? When I make a comment, my username is displayed. If upvotes and their timestamps were public, it would make it a lot easier for the community to get to the bottom of any funny business like OP is describing.

TechBro8615 7y ago
This is a great idea, but will never happen because all the YC founders would be against it for obvious reasons. EDIT: Slightly altering it a bit. What if only the first 50 upvotes were public?
- api 7y ago
  Everyone knows the site is partial to YC companies. It's an open secret. I consider it part of the "trade" in exchange for running a decent board without any ads or surveillance monetization. They're doing this for a reason, and it's to pump their brand. Hell they could just tag articles related to YC companies with a special color and pin them for a bit. I'd be fine with that.
  - TechBro8615 7y ago
    IIRC it's also true that YC founders see each other's names in a special color.
  - dang 7y ago
    I'm not sure why you're feeling like this is secret when we make a point of explicitly disclosing it, and always have. In fact, haven't you and I had exchanges about this years ago? There are three formal things that HN gives back to YC in exchange for funding it: (1) job ads, which appear on the front page and later on https://news.ycombinator.com/jobs; https://news.ycombinator.com/jobs; (2) Launch HNs for YC startups, which appear on the front page and later on https://news.ycombinator.com/launches; https://news.ycombinator.com/launches; (3) YC alumni usernames display in orange to other YC alumni (though not to themselves, which has led to a stream of emails over the years). https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20formal%20yc&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... We explicitly don't do anything beyond that to favor YC or YC companies on HN, though we don't draw lines to exclude anything either, because YC-related people and content are an inseparable part of the community here. I really need to add this to the FAQ though.
- dang 7y ago
  It will never happen, but that's not the reason. The reason is that voting data is an extremely intimate reflection of users' feelings and beliefs. None of us would want that picture of ourselves to become public, and I shudder to think of what people would do to each other with the information.
  - TechBro8615 7y ago
    I agree with this. But do you think only showing the first X votes could help resolve it? If you want to keep your upvote private, don't upvote if there are < X votes.
    - dang 7y ago
      That would discourage people from upvoting new stories, and sites like HN already struggle to get enough attention on the /newest page.
mattbee 7y ago
What alterations could HN make to the front page weighting algorithm that tries to spot and penalise voting rings? e.g. if you're someone who routinely upvotes posts within minutes, maybe your vote could count for less than an account that only dips in to the new page occasionally? Or maybe your vote gets penalised if it's your only upvote in a 24 hour period? Or maybe HN keeps track of who you upvote with, and your vote gets penalised the more you upvote with the same people? idk, it sounds like a fun project for someone if HN wanted a more organic front page.
- dang 7y ago
  Voting ring detection has been one of HN's priorities for over 12 years: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Apg%20%22ring%20detector%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20ring&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... I've personally spent hundreds of hours working on this, as well as tracking down voting rings of every imaginable sort. I'd never claim that our software catches everything, but I can tell you that it catches so much that I often go through the lists to find examples of good projects that people were trying ineptly to promote, and invite them to do it again in a way that is more likely to gain community interest.
  - mattbee 7y ago
    Thanks, I didn't know at all. I can see you didn't want to talk about this, esp with the tedious conspiracists. But I'm glad you did, and appreciate your work in keeping HN interesting & fair. It surprised me because 1) I achieved a moderate position on the front page a few years back "asking a few friends" to upvote something about my former company, but mainly 2) there's no warning to new post submitters as to the values, integrity etc. of the site, to warn people off trying to game it, which I'd expect when you'd put that much work in. I know there's a minimalist / in-the-know aesthetic to HN but I've been here 10 years, started & sold a tech business, and still didn't know the rules, the moderation patterns etc, other than "by example" (but then who'd want a whole meta.hn forum, gulp).

TechBro8615 7y ago

This is a great idea, but will never happen because all the YC founders would be against it for obvious reasons. EDIT: Slightly altering it a bit. What if only the first 50 upvotes were public?

api 7y ago
Everyone knows the site is partial to YC companies. It's an open secret. I consider it part of the "trade" in exchange for running a decent board without any ads or surveillance monetization. They're doing this for a reason, and it's to pump their brand. Hell they could just tag articles related to YC companies with a special color and pin them for a bit. I'd be fine with that.
- TechBro8615 7y ago
  IIRC it's also true that YC founders see each other's names in a special color.
- dang 7y ago
  I'm not sure why you're feeling like this is secret when we make a point of explicitly disclosing it, and always have. In fact, haven't you and I had exchanges about this years ago? There are three formal things that HN gives back to YC in exchange for funding it: (1) job ads, which appear on the front page and later on https://news.ycombinator.com/jobs; https://news.ycombinator.com/jobs; (2) Launch HNs for YC startups, which appear on the front page and later on https://news.ycombinator.com/launches; https://news.ycombinator.com/launches; (3) YC alumni usernames display in orange to other YC alumni (though not to themselves, which has led to a stream of emails over the years). https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20formal%20yc&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... We explicitly don't do anything beyond that to favor YC or YC companies on HN, though we don't draw lines to exclude anything either, because YC-related people and content are an inseparable part of the community here. I really need to add this to the FAQ though.
dang 7y ago
It will never happen, but that's not the reason. The reason is that voting data is an extremely intimate reflection of users' feelings and beliefs. None of us would want that picture of ourselves to become public, and I shudder to think of what people would do to each other with the information.
- TechBro8615 7y ago
  I agree with this. But do you think only showing the first X votes could help resolve it? If you want to keep your upvote private, don't upvote if there are < X votes.
  - dang 7y ago
    That would discourage people from upvoting new stories, and sites like HN already struggle to get enough attention on the /newest page.

mattbee 7y ago

What alterations could HN make to the front page weighting algorithm that tries to spot and penalise voting rings? e.g. if you're someone who routinely upvotes posts within minutes, maybe your vote could count for less than an account that only dips in to the new page occasionally? Or maybe your vote gets penalised if it's your only upvote in a 24 hour period? Or maybe HN keeps track of who you upvote with, and your vote gets penalised the more you upvote with the same people? idk, it sounds like a fun project for someone if HN wanted a more organic front page.

dang 7y ago
Voting ring detection has been one of HN's priorities for over 12 years: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Apg%20%22ring%20detector%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20ring&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... I've personally spent hundreds of hours working on this, as well as tracking down voting rings of every imaginable sort. I'd never claim that our software catches everything, but I can tell you that it catches so much that I often go through the lists to find examples of good projects that people were trying ineptly to promote, and invite them to do it again in a way that is more likely to gain community interest.
- mattbee 7y ago
  Thanks, I didn't know at all. I can see you didn't want to talk about this, esp with the tedious conspiracists. But I'm glad you did, and appreciate your work in keeping HN interesting & fair. It surprised me because 1) I achieved a moderate position on the front page a few years back "asking a few friends" to upvote something about my former company, but mainly 2) there's no warning to new post submitters as to the values, integrity etc. of the site, to warn people off trying to game it, which I'd expect when you'd put that much work in. I know there's a minimalist / in-the-know aesthetic to HN but I've been here 10 years, started & sold a tech business, and still didn't know the rules, the moderation patterns etc, other than "by example" (but then who'd want a whole meta.hn forum, gulp).