15 ms·

Apple does the same thing, where they claim iMessage is ETE encrypted, but the keys (so capabilities to read) are stored on their servers.

by Tuxer 7y ago

dgcupps 7y ago
No, it doesn't. https://support.apple.com/guide/security/how-imessage-sends-and-receives-messages-sec70e68c949/web https://support.apple.com/guide/security/how-imessage-sends-...
- chance_state 7y ago
  I think this article is a bit over my head, but if Apple never has possession of users' private keys, how are they able to recover iMessage conversations when a phone is lost/stolen (which I know they can do)?
  - bananabreakfast 7y ago
    They can only do that if you have backed up your phone. If you haven't they cannot recover your messages.
- modeless 7y ago
  Yes, it does. The messages are 'end to end' encrypted in the iMessage service, but then iMessage backs up its encryption key in the iCloud backup service, defeating the point. "If you have iCloud Backup turned on, your backup includes a copy of the key protecting your Messages. This ensures you can recover your Messages if you lose access to iCloud Keychain and your trusted devices." https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303
  - dgcupps 7y ago
    That is true of any end-to-end solution. If you back up your private keys, anyone who has access to your backup would be able to access the encrypted messages. Remember, you can turn off iCloud backup if you're worried about Apple accessing your keys. Ultimately, it's false to equate iMessage's encryption scheme, which is end-to-end, to an encryption scheme that requires a server to relay decrypted data.
    - modeless 7y ago
      > That is true of any end-to-end solution. Utterly false. Real end-to-end encryption would encrypt the backup with a key that is not available to the backup service (e.g. derived from a passphrase not sent to the server). Of course this system has better usability, which is why Apple does it. But it's still a farce to call a system where Apple has the ability to decrypt the majority of messages "end-to-end" encrypted. The fact that it's through the backup servers instead of the iMessage servers makes no difference. What's more, it's possible to do better without sacrificing usability. For several years Android has been end-to-end encrypting backups using the user's lock screen passcode, with protection against brute force attacks provided by hardware secure elements. https://security.googleblog.com/2018/10/google-and-android-have-your-back-by.html https://security.googleblog.com/2018/10/google-and-android-h...
      - Dylan16807 7y ago
        > The fact that it's through the backup servers instead of the iMessage servers makes no difference. It makes a big difference. If I print out the texts I receive, it doesn't change whether the texting program is end-to-end encrypted. The same goes for backups. An unencrypted system-level backup doesn't mean that the program being backed up is failing at security. It's bad that Apple doesn't let you encrypt your backups properly, but it's a separate issue.
        modeless 7y ago
        What if the texting program has a built in feature to print the texts you receive and mail a copy to the company that wrote the program, and it nags you to enable this feature all the time, and most of your friends have it enabled? Because that's a lot closer to the scenario here. > An unencrypted system-level backup doesn't mean that the program being backed up is failing at security. iOS programs can choose how their data is backed up. iMessage isn't just getting its data stolen by iCloud accidentally. These backups are a feature of iMessage as much as iCloud. And besides, iCloud is made by the same company, it's not a separate entity.
  - jrumbut 7y ago
    This would be less upsetting to me if my Macbook didn't bug me about iCloud every time I start up several years after I bought it.
  - jedieaston 7y ago
    There’s a good HN thread from earlier this year about that, but basically, you can disable iCloud Backup and enable Messages in the Cloud, so that all of the messages are still backed up and synced between your devices but the keys are not, so that Apple can not read them. Then you can back up to your Mac/PC instead.
    - modeless 7y ago
      But unless everyone you correspond with does this too, Apple can still read your messages to them.
      - simonh 7y ago
        Sure, the security of your communications to someone depends on how well they protect them, not just you. That’s always true.
        modeless 7y ago
        But most end-to-end encrypted apps aren't configured by most of their users to send their messages and encryption keys directly to the author of the app. iMessage is.
  - criddell 7y ago
    > defeating the point Have you considered that some people trust Apple but don't trust Zoom? At some point you have to trust somebody, right?
    - modeless 7y ago
      Feel free to trust who you want but I don't think Apple should be able to get away with calling iMessage end-to-end encrypted when they have most iMessages stored on their servers and the keys to decrypt them. > At some point you have to trust somebody, right? It's possible to use an actual end to end encrypted app that doesn't have the keys to read your messages stored on their servers.
bananabreakfast 7y ago
This is not true. Don't spread FUD. Apple does not have the ability to read your messages. All messages stored on their servers are encrypted with keys that live only on the phone. iMessage doesn't store your decryption keys on Apple's servers unless you opt into iCloud backup which is a whole different service and security concern.
- modeless 7y ago
  Most people use iCloud backup. Even if you don't, your messages are still sent to Apple by the recipient. And Apple prohibits third party backup services. > Apple does not have the ability to read your messages. iCloud backup is an Apple service and it has the ability to read most of your messages even if you don't use it, which makes this statement categorically false.
  - peteretep 7y ago
    This is completely ridiculous. iMessage is encrypted by my device and remains encrypted until it gets to the recipient device. That is what end-to-end encryption means. That I may have given Apple my private key through a different message in no way affects that end-to-end encryption, because it is trivial to decide not to give Apple that key.
    - modeless 7y ago
      iCloud isn't some separate entity from iMessage. It's all Apple. And you have no option to use a different cloud backup provider. You can decide not to give your keys to Apple, but you can't decide for all your friends to not give their keys to Apple, and the result is the same: Apple can read your messages. And the marketing is so misleading that hardly anyone knows that Apple can read most iMessages.
      - jachee 7y ago
        Got any sources for that? Sounds a lot like FUD.

Apple does the same thing, where they claim iMessage is ETE encrypted, but the keys (so capabilities to read) are stored on their servers.

by Tuxer 7y ago

Apple does the same thing, where they claim iMessage is ETE encrypted, but the keys (so capabilities to read) are stored on their servers.

dgcupps 7y ago

No, it doesn't. https://support.apple.com/guide/security/how-imessage-sends-and-receives-messages-sec70e68c949/web https://support.apple.com/guide/security/how-imessage-sends-...

chance_state 7y ago
I think this article is a bit over my head, but if Apple never has possession of users' private keys, how are they able to recover iMessage conversations when a phone is lost/stolen (which I know they can do)?
- bananabreakfast 7y ago
  They can only do that if you have backed up your phone. If you haven't they cannot recover your messages.
modeless 7y ago
Yes, it does. The messages are 'end to end' encrypted in the iMessage service, but then iMessage backs up its encryption key in the iCloud backup service, defeating the point. "If you have iCloud Backup turned on, your backup includes a copy of the key protecting your Messages. This ensures you can recover your Messages if you lose access to iCloud Keychain and your trusted devices." https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303
- dgcupps 7y ago
  That is true of any end-to-end solution. If you back up your private keys, anyone who has access to your backup would be able to access the encrypted messages. Remember, you can turn off iCloud backup if you're worried about Apple accessing your keys. Ultimately, it's false to equate iMessage's encryption scheme, which is end-to-end, to an encryption scheme that requires a server to relay decrypted data.
  - modeless 7y ago
    > That is true of any end-to-end solution. Utterly false. Real end-to-end encryption would encrypt the backup with a key that is not available to the backup service (e.g. derived from a passphrase not sent to the server). Of course this system has better usability, which is why Apple does it. But it's still a farce to call a system where Apple has the ability to decrypt the majority of messages "end-to-end" encrypted. The fact that it's through the backup servers instead of the iMessage servers makes no difference. What's more, it's possible to do better without sacrificing usability. For several years Android has been end-to-end encrypting backups using the user's lock screen passcode, with protection against brute force attacks provided by hardware secure elements. https://security.googleblog.com/2018/10/google-and-android-have-your-back-by.html https://security.googleblog.com/2018/10/google-and-android-h...
    - Dylan16807 7y ago
      > The fact that it's through the backup servers instead of the iMessage servers makes no difference. It makes a big difference. If I print out the texts I receive, it doesn't change whether the texting program is end-to-end encrypted. The same goes for backups. An unencrypted system-level backup doesn't mean that the program being backed up is failing at security. It's bad that Apple doesn't let you encrypt your backups properly, but it's a separate issue.
      - modeless 7y ago
        What if the texting program has a built in feature to print the texts you receive and mail a copy to the company that wrote the program, and it nags you to enable this feature all the time, and most of your friends have it enabled? Because that's a lot closer to the scenario here. > An unencrypted system-level backup doesn't mean that the program being backed up is failing at security. iOS programs can choose how their data is backed up. iMessage isn't just getting its data stolen by iCloud accidentally. These backups are a feature of iMessage as much as iCloud. And besides, iCloud is made by the same company, it's not a separate entity.
- jrumbut 7y ago
  This would be less upsetting to me if my Macbook didn't bug me about iCloud every time I start up several years after I bought it.
- jedieaston 7y ago
  There’s a good HN thread from earlier this year about that, but basically, you can disable iCloud Backup and enable Messages in the Cloud, so that all of the messages are still backed up and synced between your devices but the keys are not, so that Apple can not read them. Then you can back up to your Mac/PC instead.
  - modeless 7y ago
    But unless everyone you correspond with does this too, Apple can still read your messages to them.
    - simonh 7y ago
      Sure, the security of your communications to someone depends on how well they protect them, not just you. That’s always true.
      - modeless 7y ago
        But most end-to-end encrypted apps aren't configured by most of their users to send their messages and encryption keys directly to the author of the app. iMessage is.
- criddell 7y ago
  > defeating the point Have you considered that some people trust Apple but don't trust Zoom? At some point you have to trust somebody, right?
  - modeless 7y ago
    Feel free to trust who you want but I don't think Apple should be able to get away with calling iMessage end-to-end encrypted when they have most iMessages stored on their servers and the keys to decrypt them. > At some point you have to trust somebody, right? It's possible to use an actual end to end encrypted app that doesn't have the keys to read your messages stored on their servers.

bananabreakfast 7y ago

This is not true. Don't spread FUD. Apple does not have the ability to read your messages. All messages stored on their servers are encrypted with keys that live only on the phone. iMessage doesn't store your decryption keys on Apple's servers unless you opt into iCloud backup which is a whole different service and security concern.

modeless 7y ago
Most people use iCloud backup. Even if you don't, your messages are still sent to Apple by the recipient. And Apple prohibits third party backup services. > Apple does not have the ability to read your messages. iCloud backup is an Apple service and it has the ability to read most of your messages even if you don't use it, which makes this statement categorically false.
- peteretep 7y ago
  This is completely ridiculous. iMessage is encrypted by my device and remains encrypted until it gets to the recipient device. That is what end-to-end encryption means. That I may have given Apple my private key through a different message in no way affects that end-to-end encryption, because it is trivial to decide not to give Apple that key.
  - modeless 7y ago
    iCloud isn't some separate entity from iMessage. It's all Apple. And you have no option to use a different cloud backup provider. You can decide not to give your keys to Apple, but you can't decide for all your friends to not give their keys to Apple, and the result is the same: Apple can read your messages. And the marketing is so misleading that hardly anyone knows that Apple can read most iMessages.
    - jachee 7y ago
      Got any sources for that? Sounds a lot like FUD.