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Point out any socialist/communist country where this hasn't happened. Oil was pretty much their only market, you can definitely blame how the country turned ou

Point out any socialist/communist country where this hasn't happened. Oil was pretty much their only market, you can definitely blame how the country turned out based on how the government ran it's market, and btw the Venezuelan government committed much worse atrocities than just running their market into the ground. They even killed their own people trying to get aid from other countries. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/5287-people-killed-during-venezuela-security-operations-in-2018-un-reports https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/5287-people-killed-during... https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2019/feb/23/venezuela-brazil-border-aid-live-news-latest-updates https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2019/feb/23/venezuela... https://www.foxnews.com/world/venezuela-uprising-turns-violent-after-military-armored-vehicle-seen-plowing-into-crowd-of-opposition-supporters https://www.foxnews.com/world/venezuela-uprising-turns-viole... https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/22/world/americas/brazil-venezuela-border-shooting.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/22/world/americas/brazil-ven... But yeah, maybe it hasn't been implemented properly yet /s

throwawaysoc1 7y ago
Algeria, Bangladesh, Guyana, India, Nepal, Nicaragua, Portugal, Sri Lanka, Tanzania, Angola, Barbados, Congo, Ecuador, Guinea-Bissau, Mauritius, Mozambique, Mexico, Namibia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Suriname, Uruguay, and Zambia
- s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
  The economies of those countries doesn't disagree with my point. While most of those haven't committed any atrocities, people have died due to the poverty socialism creates. It's only a matter of time until the regimes in power are questioned and more blood is shed. Ideally you want democracy (for freedom) and capitalism (for money). If you don't have capitalism, you will crumble, China found that out the hard way and corrected itself (though never added the democracy part). Keep in mind, poverty kills people too. Most of the countries you listed are extremely poor. India who has been practicing socialism since '47 has the largest slums in the world.
  - Dylan16807 7y ago
    The problem is the regimes, not the socialism. Bad leaders with total power will often commit atrocities, even if they embrace capitalistic money-making.
    - valuearb 7y ago
      Authoritarian regimes are a common by product of socialism
    - ChainOfFools 7y ago
      the problem is the impossible expectation for an entire society to change its fundamental assumptions about how to route value through itself,in a radical way, and within the space of a few years. This virtually guarantees a dictatorship (and usually a personality cult, whether forced or organically developedl) and all the negatives that accompany one.
  - throwawaysoc2 7y ago
    To create your list you just grabbed a bunch of countries that claimed they were socialist/communist (some of whom weren't and didn't claim to be such as Rwanda). The above is a list of countries that claim to be socialist or are run by a socialist party that hadn't committed any atrocities. It's unreasonable to discount the above list because "it's only a matter of time until ... more blood is shed" because you can't predict the future.
- magoghm 7y ago
  Mexico is definitively not a communist or socialist country. Although it might be a little to the "left" of the US, it would be considered a capitalistic country in most of Europe.
deepakhj 7y ago
Sweden, Norway, etc?
- s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
  Neither one of those are socialist countries. Sweden is very capitalistic, they have been reversing welfare services since 1994. Both do have great welfare services, but they are very capitalistic and had great wealth before implementing the services. Norway can thank that oil for their great welfare. edit: to the user below, you're arguing semantics. I know the definition of socialism and it cannot exist with capitalism. I suggest you read up. You're conflating socialism with welfare services and arguing about the semantics of the two to reach your point. tldr: I'm being critical of socialism, not "democratic socialism". https://www.forbes.com/sites/rainerzitelmann/2019/11/11/bernie-sanders-dreams-of-scandinavian-socialism-the-only-problem-it-has-long-since-failed/#792e5b836c5a https://www.forbes.com/sites/rainerzitelmann/2019/11/11/bern...
  - defterGoose 7y ago
    Your name is syntax, but it seems like you're only arguing semantics. Those countries have lots of properties of both capitalism and socialism.
  - defterGoose 7y ago
    You can't convince me that welfare services like medicine or food programs aren't part of the "production or distribution of goods and services". The reason you can't convince me is because you're wrong.
    - s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
      Stating I'm wrong doesn't prove your point, just like sharing only one attribute doesn't make a thing something else. Being a socialist country involves much more than the "production or distribution of goods and services". You're overplaying even that because it's only one industry (healthcare). Both Sweden and Norway are rated highly on the economic freedom index https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking.
Mediterraneo10 7y ago
> Point out any socialist/communist country where this hasn't happened. Socialist Yugoslavia saw some political imprisonments, mostly immediately after the war as Tito tried to limit Stalin’s influence in the country. But there was never collectivization leading to famine, never killings on a massive scale. The genocide in the region was only unleashed after the end of the socialist era. And before you want to rant about crushing poverty: Yugoslavs in the 1960s and 1970s lived well enough on average that they were conspicuous among tourists on the Istanbul-Kathmandu trail and Indonesia, and many international brands were sold in Yugoslavia just like in any Western European country.
jodrellblank 7y ago
"Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents. Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. That destroys the curiosity this site exists for." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
  This was on topic because the GP was talking about the fall of Venezuela. I expanded on WHY Venezuela fell, because it is tragic. I had a lot of genuinely new things to say that I'm sure some people didn't know. It's impossible to keep politics out of the news... I see political debates here all the time. I didn't pull this out of my ass to bait people, I genuinely wanted everyone to know why Venezuela is in the situation it's in. If I would have commented in the root thread I could see your point, but I was replying to the GP's topic. I'm actually glad I did because some people thought Sweden and Norway are socialist countries...
  - jodrellblank 7y ago
    I couldn't reply to your higher level comment because I flagged it; "Socialism strikes again. Let's add the death toll to the millions it has killed before." is a total flamewar bait / political ideology topic. I can tell because I was baited into replying before I noticed what I was doing and flagged it instead. quips like "But yeah, maybe it hasn't been implemented properly yet /s" are bait. "I see political debates here all the time." - then flag them, they are against the comment guidelines?
    - s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
      If I could remove the quip I would, but I only said it because I feel passionate about the issue. I sincerely was not trying to bait anyone.
      - dang 7y ago

throwawaysoc1 7y ago

Algeria, Bangladesh, Guyana, India, Nepal, Nicaragua, Portugal, Sri Lanka, Tanzania, Angola, Barbados, Congo, Ecuador, Guinea-Bissau, Mauritius, Mozambique, Mexico, Namibia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Suriname, Uruguay, and Zambia

s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
The economies of those countries doesn't disagree with my point. While most of those haven't committed any atrocities, people have died due to the poverty socialism creates. It's only a matter of time until the regimes in power are questioned and more blood is shed. Ideally you want democracy (for freedom) and capitalism (for money). If you don't have capitalism, you will crumble, China found that out the hard way and corrected itself (though never added the democracy part). Keep in mind, poverty kills people too. Most of the countries you listed are extremely poor. India who has been practicing socialism since '47 has the largest slums in the world.
- Dylan16807 7y ago
  The problem is the regimes, not the socialism. Bad leaders with total power will often commit atrocities, even if they embrace capitalistic money-making.
  - valuearb 7y ago
    Authoritarian regimes are a common by product of socialism
  - ChainOfFools 7y ago
    the problem is the impossible expectation for an entire society to change its fundamental assumptions about how to route value through itself,in a radical way, and within the space of a few years. This virtually guarantees a dictatorship (and usually a personality cult, whether forced or organically developedl) and all the negatives that accompany one.
- throwawaysoc2 7y ago
  To create your list you just grabbed a bunch of countries that claimed they were socialist/communist (some of whom weren't and didn't claim to be such as Rwanda). The above is a list of countries that claim to be socialist or are run by a socialist party that hadn't committed any atrocities. It's unreasonable to discount the above list because "it's only a matter of time until ... more blood is shed" because you can't predict the future.
magoghm 7y ago
Mexico is definitively not a communist or socialist country. Although it might be a little to the "left" of the US, it would be considered a capitalistic country in most of Europe.

deepakhj 7y ago

Sweden, Norway, etc?

s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
Neither one of those are socialist countries. Sweden is very capitalistic, they have been reversing welfare services since 1994. Both do have great welfare services, but they are very capitalistic and had great wealth before implementing the services. Norway can thank that oil for their great welfare. edit: to the user below, you're arguing semantics. I know the definition of socialism and it cannot exist with capitalism. I suggest you read up. You're conflating socialism with welfare services and arguing about the semantics of the two to reach your point. tldr: I'm being critical of socialism, not "democratic socialism". https://www.forbes.com/sites/rainerzitelmann/2019/11/11/bernie-sanders-dreams-of-scandinavian-socialism-the-only-problem-it-has-long-since-failed/#792e5b836c5a https://www.forbes.com/sites/rainerzitelmann/2019/11/11/bern...
- defterGoose 7y ago
  Your name is syntax, but it seems like you're only arguing semantics. Those countries have lots of properties of both capitalism and socialism.
- defterGoose 7y ago
  You can't convince me that welfare services like medicine or food programs aren't part of the "production or distribution of goods and services". The reason you can't convince me is because you're wrong.
  - s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
    Stating I'm wrong doesn't prove your point, just like sharing only one attribute doesn't make a thing something else. Being a socialist country involves much more than the "production or distribution of goods and services". You're overplaying even that because it's only one industry (healthcare). Both Sweden and Norway are rated highly on the economic freedom index https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking.

Mediterraneo10 7y ago

> Point out any socialist/communist country where this hasn't happened. Socialist Yugoslavia saw some political imprisonments, mostly immediately after the war as Tito tried to limit Stalin’s influence in the country. But there was never collectivization leading to famine, never killings on a massive scale. The genocide in the region was only unleashed after the end of the socialist era. And before you want to rant about crushing poverty: Yugoslavs in the 1960s and 1970s lived well enough on average that they were conspicuous among tourists on the Istanbul-Kathmandu trail and Indonesia, and many international brands were sold in Yugoslavia just like in any Western European country.

jodrellblank 7y ago

"Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents. Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. That destroys the curiosity this site exists for." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
This was on topic because the GP was talking about the fall of Venezuela. I expanded on WHY Venezuela fell, because it is tragic. I had a lot of genuinely new things to say that I'm sure some people didn't know. It's impossible to keep politics out of the news... I see political debates here all the time. I didn't pull this out of my ass to bait people, I genuinely wanted everyone to know why Venezuela is in the situation it's in. If I would have commented in the root thread I could see your point, but I was replying to the GP's topic. I'm actually glad I did because some people thought Sweden and Norway are socialist countries...
- jodrellblank 7y ago
  I couldn't reply to your higher level comment because I flagged it; "Socialism strikes again. Let's add the death toll to the millions it has killed before." is a total flamewar bait / political ideology topic. I can tell because I was baited into replying before I noticed what I was doing and flagged it instead. quips like "But yeah, maybe it hasn't been implemented properly yet /s" are bait. "I see political debates here all the time." - then flag them, they are against the comment guidelines?
  - s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
    If I could remove the quip I would, but I only said it because I feel passionate about the issue. I sincerely was not trying to bait anyone.
    - dang 7y ago