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Right now doctors and nurses are being fired by their hospitals for speaking publicly about lack of PPE. You would think that whistle-blower protection, freedom

Right now doctors and nurses are being fired by their hospitals for speaking publicly about lack of PPE. You would think that whistle-blower protection, freedom of speech, or occupational safety laws would prevent this from happening. But now that we need medical staff more than ever, hospitals are firing them for alerting the public. Is there anything that can be done about this?

nradov 7y ago
For employees in California the Schoech law firm will provide free initial consultations and potentially take cases on a contingency basis. I can recommend them as a previous client on an unrelated matter. https://norcallawfirm.com/2020/03/31/essential-employees-have-a-right-to-talk-about-their-working-conditions/ https://norcallawfirm.com/2020/03/31/essential-employees-hav...
snug 7y ago
Do you have a source on this? I couldn't find anything on google
- MyHypatia 7y ago
  https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-31/hospitals-tell-doctors-they-ll-be-fired-if-they-talk-to-press https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-31/hospitals...
lisper 7y ago
> freedom of speech Applies only to the government. Your employer can restrict your speech -- and pretty much any aspect of your private life -- however they wish.
- wool_gather 7y ago
  This is entirely not true when discussing the conditions of work: see the National Labor Relations Act. Nor is it strictly true for speech that takes place outside the workplace.
  - lisper 7y ago
    > This is entirely not true when discussing the conditions of work: see the National Labor Relations Act. The NLRA is pretty much toothless nowadays. https://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-firings-were-about-unionizing-efforts-uaw-1819877228 https://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-firings-were-about-unionizing... https://medium.com/@GoogleWalkout/google-fired-us-for-organizing-were-fighting-back-d0daa8113aed https://medium.com/@GoogleWalkout/google-fired-us-for-organi... > Nor is it strictly true for speech that takes place outside the workplace. You are nominally correct. However, if I am your employer and I want to fire you I can almost certainly come up with some legitimate reason to put on the record. Your only recourse will be to file a wrongful termination suit and try to prove that the real reason I fired you was something other than what I said it was. Good luck with that. Also, if you're in an at-will state, I don't even have to come up with an excuse. If I want you gone, you're gone.
bluedino 7y ago
source? do the nurses unions protect this?
- MyHypatia 7y ago
  https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-31/hospitals-tell-doctors-they-ll-be-fired-if-they-talk-to-press https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-31/hospitals...
GuB-42 7y ago
Do you have any source for that? It sounds insane. Hospitals need all the workforce they can get. No matter what they do now, during the pandemic, there will be no shortage of patients. And I suppose it is in their best financial interest to treat as many as possible, and it means a lot of personnel. Having it the other around makes a lot more sense: doctor doesn't feel safe because of a lack of PPE, refuses to work, gets fired, complains about it. If that's the situation, it is not about whistle-blowing, it is about the right to stop working if the conditions aren't safe. Both are (or should be) basic workers rights, but these are very different things.
- MyHypatia 7y ago
  I read about it here: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-31/hospitals-tell-doctors-they-ll-be-fired-if-they-talk-to-press https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-31/hospitals... The relevant quote: "Ming Lin, an emergency room physician in Washington state, said he was told Friday he was out of a job because he’d given an interview to a newspaper about a Facebook post detailing what he believed to be inadequate protective equipment and testing. In Chicago, a nurse was fired after emailing colleagues that she wanted to wear a more protective mask while on duty. In New York, the NYU Langone Health system has warned employees they could be terminated if they talk to the media without authorization."
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - AS126 7y ago
    If this is true, it's absolutely insane! There's a global pandemic, medical staff is overwhelmed psychically and mentally. It seems there is no justice for them. They should be praised and helped by authorities, understood by all people. Yet, I'm reading about doctors and nurses being fired for speaking out their safety concerns.
- LorenPechtel 7y ago
  No. The regulators aren't going to do anything about a hospital that doesn't have enough staff these days. There's no downside for a hospital to fire someone for speaking up, but letting them get away with speaking up is asking for malpractice suits.
dfxm12 7y ago
You would think that whistle-blower protection, freedom of speech, or occupational safety laws would prevent this from happening. Just as a stop sign doesn't physically make your car stop at an intersection, a law won't prevent someone from firing someone else illegally. A fired employee can bring bring a wrongful termination suit, but the recently fired rarely have the means to see these through, even in the best of times. Employers know this.
- MyHypatia 7y ago
  Does this qualify as "wrongful termination"? Is it actually illegal for hospitals to fire medical staff for publicly voicing concerns about lack of PPE? That is what I am wondering.
  - gentleman11 7y ago
    Wrongful morally, or legally? A lot of people seem to believe that if something is legal, it is okay
jpalomaki 7y ago
Should understand why the hospitals are worried about this kind of comments. Are they afraid of lawsuits? These kind of statements could look bad in the court. You go to hospital for some standard procedure, then get covid, then sue the hospital for not taking proper precautions.
gentleman11 7y ago
There is a story going around blaming the Chinese government for concealing numbers, but in the West private industry is stepping up to the job of concealing equipment shortages.

nradov 7y ago

For employees in California the Schoech law firm will provide free initial consultations and potentially take cases on a contingency basis. I can recommend them as a previous client on an unrelated matter. https://norcallawfirm.com/2020/03/31/essential-employees-have-a-right-to-talk-about-their-working-conditions/ https://norcallawfirm.com/2020/03/31/essential-employees-hav...

snug 7y ago

Do you have a source on this? I couldn't find anything on google

MyHypatia 7y ago
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-31/hospitals-tell-doctors-they-ll-be-fired-if-they-talk-to-press https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-31/hospitals...

lisper 7y ago

> freedom of speech Applies only to the government. Your employer can restrict your speech -- and pretty much any aspect of your private life -- however they wish.

wool_gather 7y ago
This is entirely not true when discussing the conditions of work: see the National Labor Relations Act. Nor is it strictly true for speech that takes place outside the workplace.
- lisper 7y ago
  > This is entirely not true when discussing the conditions of work: see the National Labor Relations Act. The NLRA is pretty much toothless nowadays. https://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-firings-were-about-unionizing-efforts-uaw-1819877228 https://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-firings-were-about-unionizing... https://medium.com/@GoogleWalkout/google-fired-us-for-organizing-were-fighting-back-d0daa8113aed https://medium.com/@GoogleWalkout/google-fired-us-for-organi... > Nor is it strictly true for speech that takes place outside the workplace. You are nominally correct. However, if I am your employer and I want to fire you I can almost certainly come up with some legitimate reason to put on the record. Your only recourse will be to file a wrongful termination suit and try to prove that the real reason I fired you was something other than what I said it was. Good luck with that. Also, if you're in an at-will state, I don't even have to come up with an excuse. If I want you gone, you're gone.

bluedino 7y ago

source? do the nurses unions protect this?

MyHypatia 7y ago
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-31/hospitals-tell-doctors-they-ll-be-fired-if-they-talk-to-press https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-31/hospitals...

GuB-42 7y ago

Do you have any source for that? It sounds insane. Hospitals need all the workforce they can get. No matter what they do now, during the pandemic, there will be no shortage of patients. And I suppose it is in their best financial interest to treat as many as possible, and it means a lot of personnel. Having it the other around makes a lot more sense: doctor doesn't feel safe because of a lack of PPE, refuses to work, gets fired, complains about it. If that's the situation, it is not about whistle-blowing, it is about the right to stop working if the conditions aren't safe. Both are (or should be) basic workers rights, but these are very different things.

MyHypatia 7y ago
I read about it here: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-31/hospitals-tell-doctors-they-ll-be-fired-if-they-talk-to-press https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-31/hospitals... The relevant quote: "Ming Lin, an emergency room physician in Washington state, said he was told Friday he was out of a job because he’d given an interview to a newspaper about a Facebook post detailing what he believed to be inadequate protective equipment and testing. In Chicago, a nurse was fired after emailing colleagues that she wanted to wear a more protective mask while on duty. In New York, the NYU Langone Health system has warned employees they could be terminated if they talk to the media without authorization."
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- AS126 7y ago
  If this is true, it's absolutely insane! There's a global pandemic, medical staff is overwhelmed psychically and mentally. It seems there is no justice for them. They should be praised and helped by authorities, understood by all people. Yet, I'm reading about doctors and nurses being fired for speaking out their safety concerns.
LorenPechtel 7y ago
No. The regulators aren't going to do anything about a hospital that doesn't have enough staff these days. There's no downside for a hospital to fire someone for speaking up, but letting them get away with speaking up is asking for malpractice suits.

dfxm12 7y ago

You would think that whistle-blower protection, freedom of speech, or occupational safety laws would prevent this from happening. Just as a stop sign doesn't physically make your car stop at an intersection, a law won't prevent someone from firing someone else illegally. A fired employee can bring bring a wrongful termination suit, but the recently fired rarely have the means to see these through, even in the best of times. Employers know this.

MyHypatia 7y ago
Does this qualify as "wrongful termination"? Is it actually illegal for hospitals to fire medical staff for publicly voicing concerns about lack of PPE? That is what I am wondering.
- gentleman11 7y ago
  Wrongful morally, or legally? A lot of people seem to believe that if something is legal, it is okay

jpalomaki 7y ago

Should understand why the hospitals are worried about this kind of comments. Are they afraid of lawsuits? These kind of statements could look bad in the court. You go to hospital for some standard procedure, then get covid, then sue the hospital for not taking proper precautions.

gentleman11 7y ago

There is a story going around blaming the Chinese government for concealing numbers, but in the West private industry is stepping up to the job of concealing equipment shortages.