5 ms·

Sorry, I can't hear about gender in engineering jobs anymore. The likelihood that you will see a blog post about the "benefits of being a male software enginee

by yuvadam 16y ago

Sorry, I can't hear about gender in engineering jobs anymore. The likelihood that you will see a blog post about the "benefits of being a male software engineer" is exactly the same as the likelihood to see a blog post about the "benefits of being a male social worker". We do not need to artificially try to bring in more engineers of a certain gender just because the numbers don't make sense. And we do not need more blog posts calling out our oddities as engineers. We all dress like dorks. We all have our quirks. Get over it.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
FeministHacker 16y ago
And this is precisely why we need still more posts. You know why we don't need a "benefits of being a male software engineer" post? Because every day is a "benefits of being a male software engineer" day for male software engineers. You should probably have a read of http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ . As a rule when it comes to this sort of material, if it makes you feel uncomfortable and defensive, please think about why this is before commenting. I'd love to see a post about "benefits of being a male social worker", or any other female-dominated field! As a feminist (3rd wave), I don't think equality is possible without addressing the problems faced by men, as well as women. Men in such jobs are routinely mocked by other men and subjected to ridicule by our masculine culture society. And that sucks.
- thenomad 16y ago
  Oh, no, please not Derailing For Dummies. It'll certainly reduce the number of replies you get, but not in a good way...
  - FeministHacker 16y ago
    As a sign of good faith in the community here, I've removed the link for now :)
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  I admit, I haven't read the entire checklist. When the first item on it is blatantly wrong, I kind of got turned off. Go read about the advantages women have in hiring in the sciences: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12062&page=R1 http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12062&page=R1 Anecdotally, women are also given advantages in big corporate IT, but I'm not aware of any studies. Corporations are generally loath to give away data on stuff like this, who knows what lawsuits it might bring. I only skimmed the rest, but I found 14) particularly amusing. The politicians who stole my lunch [1], my freedom and my money all have a penis (just like me). This is a privilege how? [1] In Jersey City, where I live and work, Steven Fulops chased away the food trucks to protect subway.
  - FeministHacker 16y ago
    The list is a generalisation across all fields, so discounting it based on how something might not be true in your field is a bit short-sighted. #1 is true still for many fields. Of course, the link you provided wasn't for the general tech sector - it was specific to universities, which have other aspects in play. Even within the general tech sector, there are plenty of reports of questionable hiring practices. I've found to be not uncommon for my gender (female) to be an issue during interviews, and we've seen posts here in the past about this subject. Further, women are often moved rapidly into management roles, and their technical abilities treated as suspect. And yes, I'm speaking as something big corporate IT, and it's no better. Just looking across at our large (40+) server support teams, you can count the number of women on one hand. The application support teams here are slightly better, but only just. We're a typical shared services company in the UK, and our competitors are all very similar. As for 14, you've found a truth about privilege lists - they might not always be things you like.
    - yummyfajitas 16y ago
      Which fields is #1 true for? Regardless, I'll assume you are right. Points 1-3 are irrelevant for the conversation we are having here (about women in tech), so I'll keep reading. 4) is a matter of whether you personally adopt a collectivist viewpoint or not. If women disproportionately adopt collectivist viewpoints, why is that anyone's fault besides their own? 5) is probably on point. 6) may be true in general, but (much like 1-3) it seems false in tech. Consider Leah Culver - "ooh, a girl that can program, and hot", as opposed to "meh, barely competent". 7-14) may be true, but are similarly irrelevant to a conversation about women in tech. Also, you still haven't explained how 14 is a "privilege". How does Obama's penis benefit me, relative to a woman?
- jimbokun 16y ago
  "7. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low. (More). 8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are." First, those are two pretty big caveats, especially considering how the vast majority of people in prisons are men. Second, I'm pretty sure males are far more likely to be the victims of violence than females. So while these individual claims may be true, it seems to ignore the bigger picture. Maybe there are some legitimate points in this list, but for the most part I think this is an example of the "make so many accusations that none of your readers will have the time or energy to go through and refute all of them" school of writing.
Jabbles 16y ago
It depends what you mean by "artificially", imo. If our profession is being so badly misrepresented to the extent that women who would otherwise enjoy a career in engineering are driven elsewhere, then I think our society has a problem that we should give significant attention.
- yuvadam 16y ago
  Do you feel the same way about the fact that only ~20% of social workers are men?
  - charlesju 16y ago
    Or worse, 90%+ of elementary school teachers are woman.
    - bryanwb 16y ago
      my wife works in public health, a field that seems to be 90% female. My wife's office is much more gender skewed than mine. If doctors didn't make so much $, I am convinced that women would make up the majority of doctors.
      - binarysoul 16y ago
        My wife is in medical school, and getting a masters in public health, at the same time. Meanwhile, many of her friends have dropped out of MBA programs, or stopped working full-time to be pregnant / get married / be a home-maker. However, there are more females in medical school now than males, it's just a matter of time as the older generation retires. Personally, I think there would be more doctors if it didn't cost $200k+ and 4 years to get a medical degree (compare the opportunity cost vs working as a software engineer for 4 years with only a bachelors).
    - rdrimmie 16y ago
      I absolutely think it's a problem that the vast majority of elementary school teachers are women. I don't think it's inherently terrible to have fields that are dominated by one gender or another but I do think that in the case of school teachers men are being pushed away by social forces and it's detrimental to all children to be taught only by women.
Confusion 16y ago
The likelihood that you will see a blog post about the "benefits of being a male software engineer" is exactly the same as the likelihood to see a blog post about the "benefits of being a male social worker". You draw the wrong conclusion from this observation. You are not taking into account that male social workers are nowhere near as inclined to keep a blog as software engineers are. In fact, in more traditional media, regular stories about the working experiences of, for instance, male nurses have been quite common for decades.
jimbokun 16y ago
"benefits of being a male software engineer" "benefits of being a male social worker" I don't get your point. Aren't these exactly opposites in terms of prevailing stereotypes? So why would the odds of seeing those articles be exactly the same?
sarajo 16y ago
The internet is the largest record of human history in existence. If you don't see the problem with it being created and curated by white and asian males the issue lies with you.
- vinbrown2 16y ago
  I'll offer this. At what time was any recorded account of history not skewed by some prevailing perspective?
  - sarajo 16y ago
    I don't think you are saying that makes it justified, are you?
    - vinbrown2 16y ago
      Oh no. Absolutely not. Just observing a pattern.

by yuvadam 16y ago

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

FeministHacker 16y ago

And this is precisely why we need still more posts. You know why we don't need a "benefits of being a male software engineer" post? Because every day is a "benefits of being a male software engineer" day for male software engineers. You should probably have a read of http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ . As a rule when it comes to this sort of material, if it makes you feel uncomfortable and defensive, please think about why this is before commenting. I'd love to see a post about "benefits of being a male social worker", or any other female-dominated field! As a feminist (3rd wave), I don't think equality is possible without addressing the problems faced by men, as well as women. Men in such jobs are routinely mocked by other men and subjected to ridicule by our masculine culture society. And that sucks.

thenomad 16y ago
Oh, no, please not Derailing For Dummies. It'll certainly reduce the number of replies you get, but not in a good way...
- FeministHacker 16y ago
  As a sign of good faith in the community here, I've removed the link for now :)
yummyfajitas 16y ago
I admit, I haven't read the entire checklist. When the first item on it is blatantly wrong, I kind of got turned off. Go read about the advantages women have in hiring in the sciences: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12062&page=R1 http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12062&page=R1 Anecdotally, women are also given advantages in big corporate IT, but I'm not aware of any studies. Corporations are generally loath to give away data on stuff like this, who knows what lawsuits it might bring. I only skimmed the rest, but I found 14) particularly amusing. The politicians who stole my lunch [1], my freedom and my money all have a penis (just like me). This is a privilege how? [1] In Jersey City, where I live and work, Steven Fulops chased away the food trucks to protect subway.
- FeministHacker 16y ago
  The list is a generalisation across all fields, so discounting it based on how something might not be true in your field is a bit short-sighted. #1 is true still for many fields. Of course, the link you provided wasn't for the general tech sector - it was specific to universities, which have other aspects in play. Even within the general tech sector, there are plenty of reports of questionable hiring practices. I've found to be not uncommon for my gender (female) to be an issue during interviews, and we've seen posts here in the past about this subject. Further, women are often moved rapidly into management roles, and their technical abilities treated as suspect. And yes, I'm speaking as something big corporate IT, and it's no better. Just looking across at our large (40+) server support teams, you can count the number of women on one hand. The application support teams here are slightly better, but only just. We're a typical shared services company in the UK, and our competitors are all very similar. As for 14, you've found a truth about privilege lists - they might not always be things you like.
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    Which fields is #1 true for? Regardless, I'll assume you are right. Points 1-3 are irrelevant for the conversation we are having here (about women in tech), so I'll keep reading. 4) is a matter of whether you personally adopt a collectivist viewpoint or not. If women disproportionately adopt collectivist viewpoints, why is that anyone's fault besides their own? 5) is probably on point. 6) may be true in general, but (much like 1-3) it seems false in tech. Consider Leah Culver - "ooh, a girl that can program, and hot", as opposed to "meh, barely competent". 7-14) may be true, but are similarly irrelevant to a conversation about women in tech. Also, you still haven't explained how 14 is a "privilege". How does Obama's penis benefit me, relative to a woman?
jimbokun 16y ago
"7. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low. (More). 8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are." First, those are two pretty big caveats, especially considering how the vast majority of people in prisons are men. Second, I'm pretty sure males are far more likely to be the victims of violence than females. So while these individual claims may be true, it seems to ignore the bigger picture. Maybe there are some legitimate points in this list, but for the most part I think this is an example of the "make so many accusations that none of your readers will have the time or energy to go through and refute all of them" school of writing.

Jabbles 16y ago

It depends what you mean by "artificially", imo. If our profession is being so badly misrepresented to the extent that women who would otherwise enjoy a career in engineering are driven elsewhere, then I think our society has a problem that we should give significant attention.

yuvadam 16y ago
Do you feel the same way about the fact that only ~20% of social workers are men?
- charlesju 16y ago
  Or worse, 90%+ of elementary school teachers are woman.
  - bryanwb 16y ago
    my wife works in public health, a field that seems to be 90% female. My wife's office is much more gender skewed than mine. If doctors didn't make so much $, I am convinced that women would make up the majority of doctors.
    - binarysoul 16y ago
      My wife is in medical school, and getting a masters in public health, at the same time. Meanwhile, many of her friends have dropped out of MBA programs, or stopped working full-time to be pregnant / get married / be a home-maker. However, there are more females in medical school now than males, it's just a matter of time as the older generation retires. Personally, I think there would be more doctors if it didn't cost $200k+ and 4 years to get a medical degree (compare the opportunity cost vs working as a software engineer for 4 years with only a bachelors).
  - rdrimmie 16y ago
    I absolutely think it's a problem that the vast majority of elementary school teachers are women. I don't think it's inherently terrible to have fields that are dominated by one gender or another but I do think that in the case of school teachers men are being pushed away by social forces and it's detrimental to all children to be taught only by women.

Confusion 16y ago

The likelihood that you will see a blog post about the "benefits of being a male software engineer" is exactly the same as the likelihood to see a blog post about the "benefits of being a male social worker". You draw the wrong conclusion from this observation. You are not taking into account that male social workers are nowhere near as inclined to keep a blog as software engineers are. In fact, in more traditional media, regular stories about the working experiences of, for instance, male nurses have been quite common for decades.

jimbokun 16y ago

"benefits of being a male software engineer" "benefits of being a male social worker" I don't get your point. Aren't these exactly opposites in terms of prevailing stereotypes? So why would the odds of seeing those articles be exactly the same?

sarajo 16y ago

The internet is the largest record of human history in existence. If you don't see the problem with it being created and curated by white and asian males the issue lies with you.

vinbrown2 16y ago
I'll offer this. At what time was any recorded account of history not skewed by some prevailing perspective?
- sarajo 16y ago
  I don't think you are saying that makes it justified, are you?
  - vinbrown2 16y ago
    Oh no. Absolutely not. Just observing a pattern.