6 ms·

OK, I'll bite... "...that enable developers, organizations, and vendors to create new, extensible solutions that avoid the fees associated with VS Code." What

OK, I'll bite... "...that enable developers, organizations, and vendors to create new, extensible solutions that avoid the fees associated with VS Code." What fees are they talking about? VS Code is not my regular editor, but the whole thing seems to indicate confusion between "Visual Studio" and "Visual Studio Code". I am missing something or is the Eclipse Foundation really conflating the two?

reaperducer 7y ago
Yeah, I don't see the point of this, either. If you're looking for an alternative to Visual Studio Code, isn't that what VS Codium is for?
- bilbo0s 7y ago
  Why switch from VS Code to Codium? That makes even less sense than a switch to Eclipse. If you're on VS Code, just use VS Code. If you're on Eclipse, just use Eclipse. But yeah, get to market. Quibbling over quasi-religious beliefs, like X is better than Y, is exactly what allows some kid on his couch in his boxers watching SportsCenter while working on his website to beat your funded startup to market.
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    Why switch from VS Code to Codium? For me, it was because I don't want to be spied on by Microsoft. VS Codium is VS Code without the telemetry and tracking.
    - flyinglizard 7y ago
      As I became involved in more and more products and customer feedback, I started opting into telemetry collection programs. It’s ultimately what helps make the products I use better.
      - reaperducer 7y ago
        In my opinion, you're doing it either wrong or lazy. My company doesn't do telemetry. We do actual user testing with actual users, even to the point of shadowing them as they use the product. The same way it's been done for the last 40 years. You learn more from interfacing with the wetware than you do grepping logs.
        jakear 7y ago
        Why not both? User testing won't help you with questions like "there's a bug in feature X, but the fix will potentially impact feature Y in unforeseen ways. Given we're shipping soon, is it a good idea to apply the fix now or should we apply a much simpler mitigation and postpose the full fix till next iteration so we can get more testing in or even implement a larger refactoring that would resolve this category of bugs by design?" If feature X is used way less frequently than feature Y, the answer is obvious. If feature Y is used way less frequently than feature X, the answer is obvious. If its a wash, you move on to look at different metrics. This isn't a hypothetical, I ran this exact scenario yesterday against the VS Code telemetry. I applied the mitigation, the refactoring is coming next week. :)
        reaperducer 7y ago
        Why not both? Because you respect your users and know their privacy has value.
        jakear 7y ago
        I'm interested in your point of view. If I run a query that tells me X hundred thousand users have used feature Y, have I violated anyone's privacy in your opinion? Also, would you think it's better to not collect such non personally identifiable user information at the expense of quality and stability of product?
        reaperducer 7y ago
        If I run a query that tells me X hundred thousand users have used feature Y, have I violated anyone's privacy in your opinion? If you haven't asked them to specifically opt-in to data collection, then yes. And Microsoft does not ask for permission. There are some programs that do a very good job of asking before they send any crash or problem reports. Microsoft is not one of those companies. non personally identifiable user information No such animal. at the expense of quality and stability of product? One does not necessarily cause the other. I'm not in the software field, so I'm sure your experience and mine are different. But I work for a multi-billion dollar healthcare company, and the legal department won't let us touch any sort of telemetry with a ten-foot pole. Somehow we're doing just fine, and have a huge satisfaction rate with our user interfaces, according to the studies that have been done for us.
  - prophesi 7y ago
    Erm, how does it make less sense? Codium is literally more vscode than VS Code itself. So if you're on VS Code, just use Codium.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ASalazarMX 7y ago
So, avoid the non-existent fees of Microsoft and change them for the non-existent fees of Oracle and IBM. Sold! But seriously, the Eclipse Foundation would be a much trustworthier steward for a wide-used IDE than Microsoft. Unfortunately, Eclipse is in the same situation Firefox was against Chrome 5 years ago: it's slow compared to other Java IDEs like Jetbrain's.
- ysleepy 7y ago
  Hm. I remember it having utterly horrible UX and looks, but being slow wasn't really a problem. Especially the live compilation and whole project compilation error marking is something IntelliJ has not yet accomplished.
  - sbuttgereit 7y ago
    Yeah... but what the original post is about isn't the old Eclipse IDE we've all known and loved (to hate, maybe). But a new entry in the Electron based text editor craze... to me just glancing over the website, it looks like a VS Code clone. That the Eclipse IDE itself is more an analogue to Visual Studio proper could be where some on the Eclipse marketing team are mixing up the two and mentioning "VS Code fees".
    - ASalazarMX 7y ago
      You're right, it's a Javascript (Typescript) IDE, not the good old Eclipse; they're on equal footing.
- tensor 7y ago
  I wouldn't trust Oracle. Is this going to be like VirtualBox which is "free" and "open source" except for the extension pack on the very same page that you can one click download? If anyone isn't aware, they track the IP address of that extension and if they can trace it back to your company they then come calling for money. It's basically a sort of litigation honey pot. Sure, it's all legal, but it's such a nasty dark pattern and so easy of a mistake to make for end users that it should be illegal.
haolez 7y ago
I think they meant the web versions of VSCode that many vendors sell. But their message was very badly written.
_-david-_ 7y ago
I am guessing the person may not have English as a first language and meant to say 'costs' instead of 'fees'. I am not sure which costs they would be talking about. Perhaps telemetry or the limitations they mention in the article.
- sbuttgereit 7y ago
  I don't that's the issue. The post is credited to: Nichols Communications for the Eclipse Foundation, Inc. Jay Nichols A public relations business based in San Francisco should have that sorted out whether or not the actual author was a native English speaker or not.
  - _-david-_ 7y ago
    It just says media contact. I am not clear if that means they actually wrote it or not? At the top of the article it says Ottawa (which is where the headquarters of the Eclipse Foundation is located). There are a lot of French speakers around there so I assumed it was a French speaker who wrote it. Regardless it seems like somebody at Eclipse should have reviewed the memo before it was released.
JayfromEclipse 7y ago
On behalf of the Eclipse Foundation, sorry for the mistake. The reference to the “fees” in the draft version of the Theia announcement posted to eclipse.org this morning was not correct. The official press release that was issued this morning removed the incorrect reference to fees. The release on eclipse.org has now been updated to match the official press release here: https://www.eclipse.org/org/press-release/20200331-theia.php https://www.eclipse.org/org/press-release/20200331-theia.php. Our apologies for this discrepancy and any resulting confusion.

reaperducer 7y ago

Yeah, I don't see the point of this, either. If you're looking for an alternative to Visual Studio Code, isn't that what VS Codium is for?

bilbo0s 7y ago
Why switch from VS Code to Codium? That makes even less sense than a switch to Eclipse. If you're on VS Code, just use VS Code. If you're on Eclipse, just use Eclipse. But yeah, get to market. Quibbling over quasi-religious beliefs, like X is better than Y, is exactly what allows some kid on his couch in his boxers watching SportsCenter while working on his website to beat your funded startup to market.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  Why switch from VS Code to Codium? For me, it was because I don't want to be spied on by Microsoft. VS Codium is VS Code without the telemetry and tracking.
  - flyinglizard 7y ago
    As I became involved in more and more products and customer feedback, I started opting into telemetry collection programs. It’s ultimately what helps make the products I use better.
    - reaperducer 7y ago
      In my opinion, you're doing it either wrong or lazy. My company doesn't do telemetry. We do actual user testing with actual users, even to the point of shadowing them as they use the product. The same way it's been done for the last 40 years. You learn more from interfacing with the wetware than you do grepping logs.
      - jakear 7y ago
        Why not both? User testing won't help you with questions like "there's a bug in feature X, but the fix will potentially impact feature Y in unforeseen ways. Given we're shipping soon, is it a good idea to apply the fix now or should we apply a much simpler mitigation and postpose the full fix till next iteration so we can get more testing in or even implement a larger refactoring that would resolve this category of bugs by design?" If feature X is used way less frequently than feature Y, the answer is obvious. If feature Y is used way less frequently than feature X, the answer is obvious. If its a wash, you move on to look at different metrics. This isn't a hypothetical, I ran this exact scenario yesterday against the VS Code telemetry. I applied the mitigation, the refactoring is coming next week. :)
        reaperducer 7y ago
        Why not both? Because you respect your users and know their privacy has value.
        jakear 7y ago
        I'm interested in your point of view. If I run a query that tells me X hundred thousand users have used feature Y, have I violated anyone's privacy in your opinion? Also, would you think it's better to not collect such non personally identifiable user information at the expense of quality and stability of product?
        reaperducer 7y ago
        If I run a query that tells me X hundred thousand users have used feature Y, have I violated anyone's privacy in your opinion? If you haven't asked them to specifically opt-in to data collection, then yes. And Microsoft does not ask for permission. There are some programs that do a very good job of asking before they send any crash or problem reports. Microsoft is not one of those companies. non personally identifiable user information No such animal. at the expense of quality and stability of product? One does not necessarily cause the other. I'm not in the software field, so I'm sure your experience and mine are different. But I work for a multi-billion dollar healthcare company, and the legal department won't let us touch any sort of telemetry with a ten-foot pole. Somehow we're doing just fine, and have a huge satisfaction rate with our user interfaces, according to the studies that have been done for us.
- prophesi 7y ago
  Erm, how does it make less sense? Codium is literally more vscode than VS Code itself. So if you're on VS Code, just use Codium.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

ASalazarMX 7y ago

So, avoid the non-existent fees of Microsoft and change them for the non-existent fees of Oracle and IBM. Sold! But seriously, the Eclipse Foundation would be a much trustworthier steward for a wide-used IDE than Microsoft. Unfortunately, Eclipse is in the same situation Firefox was against Chrome 5 years ago: it's slow compared to other Java IDEs like Jetbrain's.

ysleepy 7y ago
Hm. I remember it having utterly horrible UX and looks, but being slow wasn't really a problem. Especially the live compilation and whole project compilation error marking is something IntelliJ has not yet accomplished.
- sbuttgereit 7y ago
  Yeah... but what the original post is about isn't the old Eclipse IDE we've all known and loved (to hate, maybe). But a new entry in the Electron based text editor craze... to me just glancing over the website, it looks like a VS Code clone. That the Eclipse IDE itself is more an analogue to Visual Studio proper could be where some on the Eclipse marketing team are mixing up the two and mentioning "VS Code fees".
  - ASalazarMX 7y ago
    You're right, it's a Javascript (Typescript) IDE, not the good old Eclipse; they're on equal footing.
tensor 7y ago
I wouldn't trust Oracle. Is this going to be like VirtualBox which is "free" and "open source" except for the extension pack on the very same page that you can one click download? If anyone isn't aware, they track the IP address of that extension and if they can trace it back to your company they then come calling for money. It's basically a sort of litigation honey pot. Sure, it's all legal, but it's such a nasty dark pattern and so easy of a mistake to make for end users that it should be illegal.

haolez 7y ago

I think they meant the web versions of VSCode that many vendors sell. But their message was very badly written.

_-david-_ 7y ago

I am guessing the person may not have English as a first language and meant to say 'costs' instead of 'fees'. I am not sure which costs they would be talking about. Perhaps telemetry or the limitations they mention in the article.

sbuttgereit 7y ago
I don't that's the issue. The post is credited to: Nichols Communications for the Eclipse Foundation, Inc. Jay Nichols A public relations business based in San Francisco should have that sorted out whether or not the actual author was a native English speaker or not.
- _-david-_ 7y ago
  It just says media contact. I am not clear if that means they actually wrote it or not? At the top of the article it says Ottawa (which is where the headquarters of the Eclipse Foundation is located). There are a lot of French speakers around there so I assumed it was a French speaker who wrote it. Regardless it seems like somebody at Eclipse should have reviewed the memo before it was released.

JayfromEclipse 7y ago

On behalf of the Eclipse Foundation, sorry for the mistake. The reference to the “fees” in the draft version of the Theia announcement posted to eclipse.org this morning was not correct. The official press release that was issued this morning removed the incorrect reference to fees. The release on eclipse.org has now been updated to match the official press release here: https://www.eclipse.org/org/press-release/20200331-theia.php https://www.eclipse.org/org/press-release/20200331-theia.php. Our apologies for this discrepancy and any resulting confusion.